| Lapas par tematu: < [1 2 3] > | American Indian Languages Tēmas autors: Fabio Descalzi
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Fabio Descalzi 
Urugvaja
Local time: 19:46
Biedrs (kopš 2004)
vācu - spāņu
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TOPIC STARTER | How many? Look... | Apr 23, 2007 |
Jørgen Madsen wrote:
It is unknown exactly how many languages were spoken in North America in pre-Columbian times, the problem being that many tribes disappeared before sufficient linguistic material could be gathered. However, it was probably somewhere between 300 and 400 languages.
Hi dear Jørgen
Look at the site of ETHNOLOGUE in particular you may look at Languages of the Americas
The variety is immense...
| | | | Jan Sundström
Zviedrija
Local time: 00:46
Biedrs (kopš 1970)
angļu - zviedru
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| | How many again... | Jun 28, 2007 |
Fabio Descalzi Sgarbi wrote: The variety is immense...
The problem with the number of original Native American languages is that some areas of North America were depopulated due to European diseases before Europeans, let alone linguists, even arrived to the area. Therefore many tribes are almost completely unknown to science. This applies especially to the Southeast, parts for the Northeast, and parts of Southeast culture areas.
| | | | | Great idea! I can do some research in Arizona | Jun 28, 2007 |
This is a great idea, Fabio. I live in Arizona and will be happy to help Jørgen Madsen find information. I would like to learn a little bit about Quechua, too. I will keep my eyes open.
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| | Fabio Descalzi
Urugvaja
Local time: 19:46
Biedrs (kopš 2004)
vācu - spāņu
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TOPIC STARTER | Thank you Maria for this most valuable contribution! | Jul 16, 2007 |
Time to start exploring in-depth!
[Edited at 2007-07-16 01:05]
| | | | | | Fabio Descalzi
Urugvaja
Local time: 19:46
Biedrs (kopš 2004)
vācu - spāņu
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TOPIC STARTER
Very interesting contribution. Shows the importance of language in its most pure version!
Do you work on this, too?
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Hi there,
I'm new to ProZ and found this topic interesting. I spent two years as a Peace Corps volunteer in Guatemala working with indigenous Mayans who spoke the K'iche' dialect (also written as Quiché), which I speak conversationally. What I find interesting is the process of converting these spoken languages into written language. Most of the women I worked with were illiterate in K'iche' and Spanish, but there is a growing movement in Guatemala to teach Mayan dialects in schoo... See more Hi there,
I'm new to ProZ and found this topic interesting. I spent two years as a Peace Corps volunteer in Guatemala working with indigenous Mayans who spoke the K'iche' dialect (also written as Quiché), which I speak conversationally. What I find interesting is the process of converting these spoken languages into written language. Most of the women I worked with were illiterate in K'iche' and Spanish, but there is a growing movement in Guatemala to teach Mayan dialects in school and you can see more billboards and other advertisements written in various local dialects around the country. In just a few years there has been noticeable progress, which is no small feat in a country like Guatemala...
~Shannon ▲ Collapse
| | | | Alan R King
Local time: 00:46
basku - angļu
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In memoriam | K'iche ' is a language! | Aug 5, 2007 |
Hi Shannon,
Shannon Jimenez wrote:
Most of the women I worked with were illiterate in K'iche' and Spanish, but there is a growing movement in Guatemala to teach Mayan dialects in school and you can see more billboards and other advertisements written in various local dialects around the country. In just a few years there has been noticeable progress, which is no small feat in a country like Guatemala...
~Shannon
Welcome to the ProZ.com community!
I may be overly sensitive but I read a distasteful, patronizing attitude into some of your comments and I think it is worth raising the following points for clarification for the purpose of bringing this discussion into line with the realities of American Indian languages and the challenge of real language recovery.
I wonder where "around the country" those billboards are. On my visits to Guatemala (from El Salvador, while involved in an independent native language recovery project there), any public signs in Mayan languages that I saw were few and far between and looked unlikely to serve anything other than a purely token purpose (which is better than none at all, I suppose, but not in itself an indicator of a language's vitality, I think). I'm not saying this is negative, but given the lack of more meaningful signs of progress, it doesn't get me wildly excited.
Although these languages are very widely spoken by the population, I encountered negative attitudes among local village people (in Momostenango, for example) towards the value of teaching the language in school, which is "to be expected" at a certain stage of the recovery process but, if generalizable, again suggests that the process is at a very "immature" stage still.
Yet another indicator is the very poor quality of existing/available didactic language materials that have been produced (I cannot imagine many people, with any background, actually managing to learn to speak much of the languages from such books), and the very small number of publications IN these languages (especially if we exclude from consideration those that are either scholarly publications or mainly for sale to tourists). The former of these observations tells me that, for a country with MILLIONS of native speakers of these languages and where there is "a growing movement in Guatemala to teach Mayan dialects" and "there has been noticeable progress", the movement hasn't grown as much and progress has not been as noticeable as it should, and the latter doesn't seem to reflect all that much headway in native-language alphabetization either (there surely can't be all that many readers if there is nothing to read, or many writers if hardly anything is being written).
These observations sadden me for the very reason that Maya languages are typically cited as being more alive than other native languages in the Central American area - so this doesn't say much for the state of the rest of them! But I make them in a spirit of firm yet constructive criticism, coming from the point of view that we must help native language speakers to recover and protect their languages, but effectively, and I don't think many projects have been sufficiently effective.
Lastly, I absolutely must make one other point:
Shannon Jimenez wrote:
...working with indigenous Mayans who spoke the K'iche' DIALECT (also written as Quiché), which I speak conversationally...
...there is a growing movement in Guatemala to teach Mayan DIALECTS in school and you can see more billboards and other advertisements written in various local DIALECTS around the country...
(emphasis mine - ARK)
I can't understand why you talk about the Mayan languages as "dialects" even after you've lived there and worked on and speak one of these languages (the biggest one, with over a million speakers, I believe) for two years, when it is widely known and acknowledged that they are languages and the Maya themselves so consider them? In popular parlance (unscientific, but widespread nonetheless) and also some institutional discourses (normally representing the position of the official "white" culture in Latin American countries), the term "dialect" is used rather than "language" merely to connote that they have a low status and do not deserve the same treatment as "real" languages - exactly like "patois" in French and other pejorative terms in other mainstream languages and cultures. Since in that cultural context the word "dialect" is employed to belittle native language, we should be adamand about insisting that K'iche' and dozens of other native language of Guatemala (etc.) ARE languages - as the scientific community also acknowledges, of course.
Sorry if I sound pedantic and for playing the role of devil's advocate, Shannon. Please don't let me "scare you off"! But I feel these questions have to be asked and that real commitment to native language recovery requires us to be as rigorous and critical as possible if we really want to make a difference.
Alan
| | | | Fabio Descalzi
Urugvaja
Local time: 19:46
Biedrs (kopš 2004)
vācu - spāņu
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Shannon Jimenez wrote:
I'm new to ProZ and found this topic interesting. I spent two years as a Peace Corps volunteer in Guatemala working with indigenous Mayans who spoke the K'iche' dialect (also written as Quiché), which I speak conversationally.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I invite you to tell us more about your own, personal experience with that! How is it to be able to communicate in a not-so-widespread language? Which is the level of "pure" language you find? Does it indeed have a strong identity? Please, let us know!
| | | | Fabio Descalzi
Urugvaja
Local time: 19:46
Biedrs (kopš 2004)
vācu - spāņu
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TOPIC STARTER | Thanks Alan too! | Aug 5, 2007 |
Alan R King wrote:
Hi Shannon,
Welcome to the ProZ.com community!
I may be overly sensitive but I read a distasteful, patronizing attitude into some of your comments and I think it is worth raising the following points for clarification for the purpose of bringing this discussion into line with the realities of American Indian languages and the challenge of real language recovery.
(...)
Sorry if I sound pedantic and for playing the role of devil's advocate, Shannon. Please don't let me "scare you off"! But I feel these questions have to be asked and that real commitment to native language recovery requires us to be as rigorous and critical as possible if we really want to make a difference.
Alan
Hi Alan,
Thanks for sharing your most valuable views. I see that at last we are really discussing something!
I appreciate your rigour and academic approach on the matter.
Nevertheless, let me tell you just my humble feeling - which s the sincere feeling of a lover of languages, who at the same time is not a PhD in the subject...
As you rightly point it, "let's not scare off interested people". I already know - TOO WELL - how hard it is to attract people who speak American Indian languages... to a FORUM! to a PC! to write!
Please, Alan: go on sharing your rigorous views, which are something the American Aboriginal languages need (just as Euskera did need once), but... let's allow for some free-space as well.
Best regards from the "River of the colorful birds",
Fabio
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Alan R King wrote:
Although these languages are very widely spoken by the population, I encountered negative attitudes among local village people (in Momostenango, for example) towards the value of teaching the language in school, which is "to be expected" at a certain stage of the recovery process but, if generalizable, again suggests that the process is at a very "immature" stage still.
I agree totally-- I never meant to suggest that Guatemala was a veritable Utopia of teaching Mayan languages. I do, however, think that Guatemalan law requiring bilingual education in indigenous areas is an important first step. It is yet in its infancy and hindered quite substantially by the short supply of bilingual teachers to teach in these areas, not to mention the deplorable training of teachers in general around the country.
Alan R King wrote:
Yet another indicator is the very poor quality of existing/available didactic language materials that have been produced (I cannot imagine many people, with any background, actually managing to learn to speak much of the languages from such books), and the very small number of publications IN these languages (especially if we exclude from consideration those that are either scholarly publications or mainly for sale to tourists).
Agreed again, though there are some reasonable resources in the most spoken languages (K'iche', Kaq'chikel, and Keqchi), the less spoken languages have more or less ignored. With 20 languages spoken, it does seem a daunting task and I wonder if the situation will ever change.
Alan R King wrote:
These observations sadden me for the very reason that Maya languages are typically cited as being more alive than other native languages in the Central American area - so this doesn't say much for the state of the rest of them!
Being a "glass half full" type of person, I like to see the progress of the last 10 years (since the end of the Civil War and national "recognition" of indigenous culture) as a sign of a bright future for the languages. As I said, I agree that they have not been as fully developed as one would hope, but the number of native speakers is not dropping, as often happens with such languages, so one can be a bit optimistic, right?
Alan R King wrote:
I can't understand why you talk about the Mayan languages as "dialects" even after you've lived there and worked on and speak one of these languages (the biggest one, with over a million speakers, I believe) for two years, when it is widely known and acknowledged that they are languages and the Maya themselves so consider them?
My mistake! I have never studied linguistics and simply used the term I was used to hearing... in Spanish, Mayans themselves use the term "lengua" to describe their mother tongues which would be most appropriately translated as "language." I learn something new every day![/quote]
Alan R King wrote:
Sorry if I sound pedantic and for playing the role of devil's advocate, Shannon. Please don't let me "scare you off"! But I feel these questions have to be asked and that real commitment to native language recovery requires us to be as rigorous and critical as possible if we really want to make a difference.
I appreciate your thoughts on the matter. As I said, I am not a linguist in the academic sense and I am happy that so many people from all over the world have taken an interest in the recovery of these languages.
~Shannon
| | | | Alan R King
Local time: 00:46
basku - angļu
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In memoriam | Tell us some more, Shannon | Aug 5, 2007 |
Fabio Descalzi Sgarbi wrote:
I invite you to tell us more about your own, personal experience with that!
Shannon, I second Fabio's suggestion that you tell us a bit more about your experience and we continue the discussion. This is worth talking about. And I'm glad not to have scared you off after all (point taken, Fabio).
My experience of the Guatemala Maya was seen through the filter of a visitor from El Salvador and my experience with the Pipils there (whose language is in a much more dire situation, by the way). In comparison with the Pipils, the Maya are indeed "doing very well". For one thing, there are still many speakers, the languages are widely spoken (not the same thing - you can have lots of speakers without them using the language much!), and you can see and hear this in public spaces, another important thing.
El Salvador is the other side of the coin: very few Nawat speakers remain, the language is little used, and its public presence is zero, so much so that many El Salvadoreans (who generally couldn't care less about the whole business and are happy to behave as if the "indígenas" weren't there, and who in fact conceive of "their country" as if they weren't there - which of course is also true of the United States, isn't it?) are often unaware that Nawat is still a living language at all because the matter is not discussed publicly.
Interestingly, and we should be careful to take note of this, what I have just described is perfectly compatible with an official institutional discourse that pays token homage to the place of the Pipils and the Nawat language (and to a lesser extent, to that of other indigenous peoples and their languages) in a HISTORICAL discourse or one of "national folklore". So to speak: it's okay to be colourful and picturesque and part of our ancestral background but please don't be a nuisance by existing, and no you certainly don't have a right to a flourishing ethnic identity. The level of hypocrisy is quite incredible, and when you look at the people and notice that racially most of them have predominantly indigenous blood, it makes you wonder about what kind of national psyche is involved.
Another clear difference between El Salvador and Guatemala is that in Guate, many of the indigenous people still dress in their own very noticeable style and generally act like they have an ethnic identity of their own, even showing pride in it, I think. In El Salvador, many Pipils were massacred (by the tens of thousands) back in the 1930s and being an "indio" was enough reason to get someone killed. This resulted in the survivors adopting non-indigenous dress, not speaking their own language, and generally doing their best to sink into the background and not be noticed at all - which is sort of the way they act today, giving the sensation that the trauma still hasn't worn off and they don't dare admit who they are. I know Guatamalan "Indians" have suffered too, but their outward behaviour is certainly different, and they have maintained their customs, language, identity and numbers.
Over to you, Shannon!
Alan
| | | | Parrot
Spānija
Local time: 00:46
spāņu - angļu
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Shannon Jimenez wrote:
I spent two years as a Peace Corps volunteer in Guatemala working with indigenous Mayans who spoke the K'iche' dialect (also written as Quiché), which I speak conversationally.
... someone got that far! Welcome, Shannon!
What I find interesting is the process of converting these spoken languages into written language. Most of the women I worked with were illiterate in K'iche' and Spanish, but there is a growing movement in Guatemala to teach Mayan dialects in school and you can see more billboards and other advertisements written in various local dialects around the country. In just a few years there has been noticeable progress, which is no small feat in a country like Guatemala...
What I'd personally be more curious about is not what we tell/sell in a language, but what it tells us. How it shapes a world view, for instance. Myths? Literature (yes, oral!), even if just in snatches, proverbs, riddles, idioms?
Cecilia
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