| Pages in topic: [1 2 3] > | Non-transparent contest rules and illogical winner determination Thread poster: Zea_Mays
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Zea_Mays 
Italy
Local time: 01:17
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
The Proz contest rules are non-transparent and incomprehensible regarding how winners are determined.
See a comparision of some sample combinations with and without winners below.
For the combinations without winners it reads "Not enough votes were submitted by peers for a winning entry to be determined."
In the FAQ it reads that in the finals winners are determined by peers through voting their entries for the first, second and third place:
"In final voting rounds, voters are asked to select the entry that they consider the best of the group. Second and third best entries may also be designated, with points being assigned to entries in amounts of four (4), two (2) and one (1), respectively. The entry that collects the most points in final round voting, wins." NO mention of a minimum number of votes or points required.
Point system in final stage when woting entries:
1st: 4 points; 2d: 2 points; 3th: 1 point
Now, let's compare the best ranking entries of some language combinations:
Language pairs WITH winners (samples):
FR>Spanish (8 votes, 30 points)
EN>Czech (8 votes, 24 points)
Ind.>English (5 votes, 20 points)
EN>German (6 votes, 18 points/ 5 votes, 18 points - 2 winners)
Language pairs WITHOUT winners (samples):
EN>Slovak (7 votes, 28 points)
EN>Danish (7 votes, 25 points)
EN>Armenian (6 votes, 22 points)
EN>Serbian (6 votes, 20 points)
EN>Thai (6 votes, 20 points)
EN>Dutch (6 votes, 18 points)
EN>Catalan (5 votes, 18 points)
FR>German (5 votes, 17 points)
ES>German (5 votes, 16 points)
FR>Portuguese (EU) (5 votes, 17 points)
@Proz: What's the logic behind this unequal (and IMO unfair) treatment, given that NO MINIMUM number of points or vote(r)s is required?
[Edited at 2023-10-21 10:39 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 01:17
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Zea_Mays wrote:
For the combinations without winners it reads "Not enough votes were submitted by peers for a winning entry to be determined."
FR>Spanish (8 votes, 30 points)
EN>Czech (8 votes, 24 points)
...
EN>Slovak (7 votes, 28 points)
EN>Danish (7 votes, 25 points)
...
What's the logic behind this ... treatment, given that NO MINIMUM number of points or vote(r)s is required?
The text "Not enough votes were submitted by peers for a winning entry to be determined" means that there IS a minimum number of votes required. We just don't know what that minimum is or how it is calculated (e.g. total votes alone, or total votes divided by something, or what).
In your list, you mention how many votes the winning entry got, but not how many votes that language combination got in total. That is the crucial information, that is missing from your list.
Here, I've put in some effort to count the number of votes that is missing from your list, for the four quoted languages:
Winners:
FR>Spanish
Votes for winning entry: 8 votes, 30 points
Votes in total for all entries: 31
Voters in total: 11
Total entries in final round: 4
Total votes divided by final round entries: 7.75
EN>Czech
Votes for winning entry: 8 votes, 24 points
Votes in total for all entries: 19
Voters in total: 9
Total entries in final round: presumably 3
Total votes divided by final round entries: 6.33
No winners:
EN>Slovak
Votes for winning entry: 7 votes, 28 points
Votes in total for all entries: 15 (apparently not enough)
Voters in total: 7 (possibly not enough)
Total entries in final round: 5
Total votes divided by final round entries: 3
EN>Danish
Votes for winning entry: 7 votes, 25 points
Votes in total for all entries: 14 (apparently not enough)
Voters in total: 7 (possibly not enough)
Total entries in final round: presumably 5
Total votes divided by final round entries: 2.8
I have no idea whether "Total votes divided by final round entries" is the calculation used by ProZ.com (I certainly hope not, because it would mean that a language with lots of final-round entries would require lots of voters to determine a winner), but I mention it here just to show what kinds of totals could be achieved with some mathematics.
If its just the total number of votes, then it would appear that the cut-off point lies somewhere between 16 votes and 19 votes. If it's just the total number of voters, then the cut-off point seems to be between 8 voters and 9 voters.
It is possible to determine how many voters (in addition to the number of votes) there were, because the voting system doesn't allow one to select a second-best option without also selecting a first-best option, so the number of first-best votes is also the number of voters.
I also did some calculations that involved the total number of eligible voters, for the sake of this post defined as the number of platinum members who have that language combination in their top 8 language combinations, but I could not see a pattern, so the number of eligible voters doesn't seem to matter.
[Edited at 2023-10-21 09:56 GMT]
| | | | Zea_Mays
Italy
Local time: 01:17
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Only what is stated in the rules/FAQ counts, any other approach would be arbitrary and could be shaped at choice. Where's transparency here?
If the rule says "The entry that collects the most points in final round voting, wins.", THIS counts.
Therefore, all best ranking entries in the mentioned pairs have to be winners too.
Samuel wrote:
The text "Not enough votes were submitted by peers for a winning entry to be determined" means that there IS a minimum number of votes required. We just don't know what that minimum is or how it is calculated
Uh? A contest where participants are not informed about this crucial point? Hello??
Samuel wrote:If its just the total number of votes, then it would appear that the cut-off point lies somewhere between 16 votes and 19 votes. If it's just the total number of voters, then the cut-off point seems to be between 8 voters and 9 voters.
Oh! So what you'd say about the EN>DE combination?
Samuel wrote:
(FWIW, it is possible to determine how many voters (in addition to the number of votes) there were, because the voting system doesn't allow one to select a second-best option without also selecting a first-best option.)
I think you can also select only one of the options.
[Bearbeitet am 2023-10-21 09:57 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 01:17
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Zea_Mays wrote:
Only what is stated in the rules/FAQ counts; any other approach would be arbitrary...
We know from past comments by ProZ.com staff that the calculation is not simple and that different calculations are done for different languages, depending on how many translators there are in those languages. The FAQ does not contain the complete set of calculations. This may be because the calculation is probably tweaked with every new contest, so that would mean that the current FAQ would soon be inconsistent with how the calculations were done in previous contests, which is not ideal.
I agree that the method of calculation should be made known, preferably before the final round of voting starts.
(FWIW, it is possible to determine how many voters (in addition to the number of votes) there were, because the voting system doesn't allow one to select a second-best option without also selecting a first-best option.) I think you can also select only one of the options.
Exactly. You don't have to select a second- and third-best translation (you can, if you want to, but you don't have to), but you are required to select a first-best translation.
If its just the total number of votes, then it would appear that the cut-off point lies somewhere between 16 votes and 19 votes. If it's just the total number of voters, then the cut-off point seems to be between 8 voters and 9 voters. Oh! So what you'd say about the EN>DE combination?
I did not investigate the EN>DE combination. My comments relate only to the four language combinations that I investigated for the purpose of my reply. You're welcome to count the votes and voters for the other language combinations and post them here for us to see.
I'll do EN>German, since you ask about it:
EN>German
Votes for winning entry: 6 votes, 18 points
Votes in total for all entries: 22
Voters in total: 11
Total entries in final round: 6
Total votes divided by final round entries: 3.6
The total votes for EN>German was 22 and the voters were 11, so what I said remains true even if we take EN>German into account.
[Edited at 2023-10-21 10:12 GMT]
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Zea_Mays
Italy
Local time: 01:17
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | So it's "guess what the contest rules are"? | Oct 21, 2023 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
We know from past comments by ProZ.com staff that the calculation is not simple and that different calculations are done for different languages, depending on how many translators there are in those languages. (...)
This does not matter. Should participants have a crystal ball in order to know this?
And who is "we"? I for example don't know what Proz's comments were, but as said they do not matter.
What counts are official and publicly visible rules and FAQs. Period.
[Bearbeitet am 2023-10-21 10:10 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 01:17
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
We know from past comments... And who is "we"?
"We" is the collective memory of ProZ.com forum participants who recall what was said during previous conversations on this topic.
What counts are official and publicly visible rules and FAQs. Period.
If that is your world view, then you must face disappointment in many aspects of your life. You have my sympathy.
[Edited at 2023-10-21 10:18 GMT]
| | | | | Mini contest 2021: "Ilustraciones" » Spanish to Italian » NO winner, 18 voting points, 5 votes | Oct 21, 2023 |
A Translation Contest is for fun.
But - as a paying member since 2008 - I expect a fair service and a fair treatment.
Unfortunately, there are many unfair and technical issues in many fields.
ProZ.com translation contests » Mini contest 2021: "Ilustraciones" » Spanish to Italian
https://www2.proz.com/translation-contests/pair/4723
Winning entries could not be determined in this language pair.
There were 7 entries submitted in this pair during the submission phase (including yours). Not enough votes were submitted by peers for a winning entry to be determined.
For a winning entry, 15 first-best votes/voters , and 18 voting points from 5 votes/voters were not enough?
Number of first-best votes/voters = 15 voters: 4 (first best entry) + 1 (second best entry) + 2 (third best entry) + 3 (entry 4) + 2 (entry 5) + 2 (entry 6) + 1 (entry 7) votes
Total votes = 31 votes = 5 (first best entry) + 7 (second best entry) + 6 (third best entry) + 4 (entry 4) + 5 (entry 5) + 2 (entry 6) + 2 (entry 7) votes
First best entry: my entry ___ 5 votes __ Voting points: 18 __ 1st: 4 x4 __ 2nd: 1 x2 ___ 3rd: 0
Second best entry _________ 7 votes __ Voting points: 15 __ 1st: 1 x4 __ 2nd: 5 x2 ___ 3rd: 1 x1
Third best entry __________ 6 votes __ Voting points: 14 __ 1st: 2 x4 __ 2nd: 2 x2 ___ 3rd: 2 x1
Entry 4 _________________ 4 votes __ Voting points: 13 __ 1st: 3 x4 __ 2nd: 0 ______ 3rd: 1 x1
Entry 5 _________________ 5 votes __ Voting points: 13 __ 1st: 2 x4 __ 2nd: 2 x2 ___ 3rd: 1 x1
Entry 6 _________________ 2 votes __ Voting points: 8 ___ 1st: 2 x4 __ 2nd: 0 ______ 3rd: 0
Entry 7 _________________ 2 votes __ Voting points: 5 ___ 1st: 1 x4 __ 2nd: 0 ______ 3rd: 1 x1
First-best votes/voters _________________________________15
Total votes_______________31
[Edited at 2023-10-24 09:51 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Zea_Mays
Italy
Local time: 01:17
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Personal attacks instead of arguments? | Oct 21, 2023 |
Samuel Murray wrote: What counts are official and publicly visible rules and FAQs. Period. If that is your world view, then you must face disappointment in many aspects of your life. You have my sympathy.
This just shows you have no arguments.
BTW, that's what communities all around the world are based on. Clear rules. Simply that.
No serious contest would be held with such an intransparent approach.
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Zea_Mays
Italy
Local time: 01:17
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | As a lawyer... | Oct 21, 2023 |
Cristina Bufi Poecksteiner, M.A. wrote:
A Translation Contest is for fun.(...)
Sure! But only up to a certain point.
In the FAQs it reads:
1.11 - Is there any prize awarded to the winners?
In some cases there are prizes. In all cases, winners receive a digital certificate and, optionally, recognition in the community and in their profile.
At this point, not being recognised as a winner because of rules that are not clearly stated
could mean a potential loss of opportunity for an entrant from a legal point of view.
The same actually also applies to not getting the certificate and the badge on your profile page
(at Proz they attribute high value to their contest!).
I believe a lawyer (but also their conscience) would therefore advise Proz to retroactively declare as winners all those participants
who met the criteria stated in the official FAQs and rules in the past,
and to review those FAQs and rules before launching any new contest.
It's just a matter of transparency and fairness.
I am convinced that the contest - and the contestants - deserve(s) that.
[Edited at 2023-10-21 17:33 GMT]
| | | | Zea_Mays
Italy
Local time: 01:17
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | What AI bots say - part 1: Bard | Oct 21, 2023 |
Now, for the AI geeks here and at Proz in general who think the AI bot's opinion is pretty important, let's see what the bots have to say.
This is the question I have asked the bots:
Question:
As an US lawyer, what would you say about a contest where entrants are not awarded prices or are not declared as winners because of rules that are not stated in the official rules and FAQs of the contest?
Here's the reply from Bard (Google's AI bot):
Bard said:
As a US lawyer, I would say that a contest where entrants are not awarded prizes or are not declared as winners because of rules that are not stated in the official rules and FAQs of the contest is likely to be considered deceptive and unfair.
Contests are governed by a variety of laws, including state and federal consumer protection laws. These laws prohibit businesses from engaging in deceptive or unfair practices. One way in which a business can engage in deceptive or unfair practices is by misrepresenting the terms of a contest.
When a business publishes the official rules of a contest, it is essentially entering into a contract with its entrants. The official rules should clearly and accurately state the terms of the contest, including the eligibility requirements, the method of entry, and the criteria for winning. Any rules that are not stated in the official rules are not enforceable.
If a business does not award prizes to entrants or does not declare winners because of rules that are not stated in the official rules, the entrants may have a legal claim against the business. The entrants may be able to sue the business for breach of contract, deceptive trade practices, or other causes of action.
In addition to the legal consequences, businesses that engage in deceptive or unfair contest practices may also damage their reputation and lose customers.
Here are some tips for businesses that are running contests:
Make sure that the official rules of the contest are clear, accurate, and complete.
State all of the contest rules in the official rules, even if they seem obvious.
Avoid changing the contest rules after the contest has begun.
Award prizes to the winners of the contest in accordance with the official rules.
If you have any questions about the legality of your contest, consult with an attorney.
If you are an entrant in a contest and you believe that you have been deprived of a prize or otherwise treated unfairly, you should contact the business that sponsored the contest. If you are unable to resolve the issue with the business, you may want to consult with an attorney.
| | | | Zea_Mays
Italy
Local time: 01:17
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | What AI bots say - part 2: ChattGPT | Oct 21, 2023 |
Chatty is of the same opinion as Bard.
ChatGPT said:
As a US lawyer, I would say that such a contest could potentially be in violation of consumer protection laws and regulations, particularly if the rules and FAQs do not provide clear and transparent information about how the contest works, how winners are determined, and what prizes or awards are available.
Contests and sweepstakes in the United States are subject to a variety of federal and state laws and regulations, primarily to protect consumers from deceptive or unfair practices. These laws generally require that contest organizers provide clear and accurate information about the contest, including the rules, eligibility criteria, and the prizes or awards available.
If the official rules and FAQs do not contain information about the criteria for determining winners or if they contain hidden or undisclosed rules that impact the outcome, this may be considered deceptive or unfair, and it could potentially lead to legal issues. Contest organizers have a legal obligation to provide participants with complete and accurate information about the contest.
If you believe you have been misled by a contest that did not adhere to its stated rules, you may want to consider the following steps:
Review the official rules and FAQs carefully to ensure that there are no undisclosed or hidden rules that impact the outcome of the contest.
Contact the contest organizers to seek clarification or resolution.
If the issue is not resolved, you may want to consider filing a complaint with relevant consumer protection agencies, such as the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) or your state's Attorney General's office.
Consult with an attorney to explore potential legal actions, such as a breach of contract or deceptive trade practices claim, if you believe you have suffered financial harm due to the contest organizers' actions.
Keep in mind that the specific legal remedies and options may vary depending on the circumstances and the applicable laws in your jurisdiction. It's advisable to consult with an attorney who specializes in consumer protection or contest-related matters to determine the best course of action in your particular case.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 01:17
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| That's not how Chat GPT works | Oct 21, 2023 |
Zea_Mays wrote:
This is the question I have asked the bots: "As an US lawyer..." ...
Telling the bot to speak "as a lawyer" doesn't turn the bot into an actual lawyer. It simply changes the way the bot speaks, i.e. the bot produces speech that mimics the way a legal opinion would sound like. The response is not actually a legal opinion.
Also, the answer that you get depends on how you phrase the question, and unfortunately your question was phrased in a way to get the answer that you were looking for. If you were to ask e.g. "Is it acceptable for the judges in a contest to take things into account that are not explicitly stated in the rules of the contest?", you'd get a different answer.
[Edited at 2023-10-21 18:27 GMT]
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Zea_Mays
Italy
Local time: 01:17
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | @Murray: Nothing wrong there. | Oct 21, 2023 |
Questions need to be framed, here the frame are the USA and the legal aspect.
The remaining is the concrete context: winners that are determined in an intransparent way.
I you prefer I can ask if contests can have hidden rules and the like and what the legal implications would be. 
BTW, the answers are the same any lawyer would give you. Never heard about consumer protection? Tsts.
BTW2: telling C... See more Questions need to be framed, here the frame are the USA and the legal aspect.
The remaining is the concrete context: winners that are determined in an intransparent way.
I you prefer I can ask if contests can have hidden rules and the like and what the legal implications would be.
BTW, the answers are the same any lawyer would give you. Never heard about consumer protection? Tsts.
BTW2: telling ChatGPT to speak as (not like) someone is one of the main prompt elements to get the answer correctly targeted.
[Edited at 2023-10-21 18:40 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 01:17
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Zea_Mays wrote:
Telling ChatGPT to speak as (not like) someone is one of the main prompt elements to get the answer correctly targeted.
Did you learn that in a TikTok? (-:
| | | | Zea_Mays
Italy
Local time: 01:17
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I bet you've never heard of giving AI bots a role when writing a prompt, have you?
But no worries, Google is there to help. 🤣
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