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A non-native client who thinks he knows my native language better than me!
Thread poster: Callum Walker
Jose Herrera
Jose Herrera  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 01:47
Spanish to English
+ ...
It's too much Sep 10, 2010

Walker,

I belive you went too far accepting to correct something you were 100% sure it was already correct. I guess you don't want to loose a client, but if this is the case, I think you should look for a thrid party to re-check and certified the job. Loos a little money and save the business or just tell them the work they paid you for was correctly done and let them deal with it and decide what to do.

I believe that when you are trying hard, the message they are rece
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Walker,

I belive you went too far accepting to correct something you were 100% sure it was already correct. I guess you don't want to loose a client, but if this is the case, I think you should look for a thrid party to re-check and certified the job. Loos a little money and save the business or just tell them the work they paid you for was correctly done and let them deal with it and decide what to do.

I believe that when you are trying hard, the message they are receiving is that you are not sure about your job.

Jose Herrera



Callum Walker wrote:

I'm looking for some guidance with regard to a situation which has been on-going for many weeks now, and frankly, is beginning to irritate me immensely.

On the 10th August, I accepted a proofreading project through an agency based in Ukraine of a document originally written in Russian but translated into English (my native language). The original translation had clearly been done by a non-native speaker of English and was naturally very poorly done; this required a vast amount of editing and correction. As such, I charged slightly higher than my usual proofreading rate (since, in essence, what I was doing was actually nearer to translation than proofreading!). Anyway, I submitted the completed proofread document, which I believed was very well written, and was probably about a million times better than the original translation, only to receive an email back from the client asking me to "read it through again, checking the English translation with the Russian original". I did this, and made one or two very minor stylistic changes (nothing that would constitute an error), and then re-submitted the document.

Several days later, I received an email stating pretty much the same thing: "read it through again, making sure that the English translation closely matches the expressions in the RUssian original". So again, I did this for the client, going through the (very long) document, checking each sentence against the original corresponding sentence. No problems found once again. I made one or two (once again) stylistic changes, but again, nothing that was actually a mistake. I emailed the document back, explaining that the reason that the English did not closely match the Russian is because languages, by their very nature, are different. English expresses ideas and concepts in a different way to Russian. Just because something is said in one way in Russian, it does not mean that you can directly transfer that concept into English word-for-word. I did however say to them that if they had specific issues, please highlight them or comment on them to bring them to my attention, and that I can pay it special attention. I explained that I cannot devote the time to look through the entire 10,000 document every few days to search for some tiny inconsistency which they believed to have found.

And once again, I got an email back, this time with highlighted sections... but only on the first two pages of a 17 page document. The instruction was "to read through the rest of the document and make similar changes". Apparently they didn't have time to read through the rest of the document. So I made some changes (which didn't really need doing) on the first two pages and explained that I would do no further unless they gave me some constructive feedback.

And this has continued since then, to the extent that they have actually started to 'correct' my English (which I must re-iterate, is my native language). But these 'corrections' they are making are frankly wrong - they are poor from every possible angle: grammar, vocabulary, syntax etc. I have re-corrected their mistakes and I have asked them to respect my professional opinion as a native speaker.

The problem is that I can just see this continuing for ever - it has now been almost a month since I accepted the job, and it is really interfering with my other work. I have explained to them that I cannot keep doing this for them because I have other project commitments, but I fear that this will not matter to them.

Firstly, how do I address this attitude of theirs that "they know English better than me" (the client being a Russian or Ukrainian native speaker, and myself being an English native speaker)?

And secondly, should I charge extra for this continuous re-proofing?

My fear is that they have asked me to edit certain sections so many times that it is becoming 'over-edited' and is actually taking away from the simplicity and accuracy of the original work which I did. They are almost making me turn this document into one which is written in "Russ-glish" (yes, that is my attempt at combining Russian and English), and I'm worried because I'm almost tempted to just humour them so that I can be done with this document. But that of course goes against my translation ethics: that translations should be natural, accurate and correct in the target language.

Help please!
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George Hopkins
George Hopkins
Local time: 07:47
Swedish to English
Can english good... Sep 12, 2010

Insistent non-native speakers who 'can english good' are somtimes a real pain in the neck and should be avoided.

 
conejo
conejo  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 00:47
Japanese to English
+ ...
They are over-confident in English Sep 13, 2010

Whoever it is who is constantly trying to revise your native English writing is definitely over-confident in his/her abilities. I have experienced the same thing in a few cases, but like you said, there is only so much arguing that you can do.

You can't spend any more time on this, as you said.

I would issue a document saying that the original edited version you submitted is accurate, and in well-written English. (Or whichever version that you feel is most-correct, be
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Whoever it is who is constantly trying to revise your native English writing is definitely over-confident in his/her abilities. I have experienced the same thing in a few cases, but like you said, there is only so much arguing that you can do.

You can't spend any more time on this, as you said.

I would issue a document saying that the original edited version you submitted is accurate, and in well-written English. (Or whichever version that you feel is most-correct, before they tampered with it. And send that version of the translation along with this letter.) And state that this version is correct, and that their further editing is only inserting incorrect English, and that you cannot be responsible for any changes that anyone but you makes to this document. Because, you can't. They are obviously doing things that are incorrect, and you can't take the rap for that. Say that this is your version, and you are finished, and you stand by it.

I don't know how the payment will turn out. But you may just have to leave this one alone and let it go.

I have been in a similar situation in the past, where I had to issue statements that specific changes made by others were in error. There is only so much you can do, but you can stand by your own work. And no, you can't 'humor' them in doing something that inserts errors.

After you state this and wash your hands of it, whatever errors they insert in there later, that is their prerogative.

[Edited at 2010-09-13 20:55 GMT]
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Wendy Cummings
Wendy Cummings  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:47
Spanish to English
+ ...
Two small things Sep 14, 2010

I´ve only just found this post, so it may be too late for advice (either because you´ve given up completely, or have resolved it!) but:

1. I fully appreciate your frustration with the agency and your underlying desire to "do a good job". Emails can fly back and forth and they can ignore your requests forever. Therefore pin them down another way - phone them. That way you can speak with the person concerned and go through line by line until they explain what their problem is
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I´ve only just found this post, so it may be too late for advice (either because you´ve given up completely, or have resolved it!) but:

1. I fully appreciate your frustration with the agency and your underlying desire to "do a good job". Emails can fly back and forth and they can ignore your requests forever. Therefore pin them down another way - phone them. That way you can speak with the person concerned and go through line by line until they explain what their problem is. If they say "sorry, too busy to speak", arrange a specific time when they will be free and call them back.


2. I agree with Tatyana:

Tatyana Oleneva wrote:

"according to the EN 15038 Translation Industry Standard (adopted by the European Committee) the editor cannot be held responsible for the translator's product -- the translator has the prerogative of accepting or rejecting the editor's suggestions and is therefore responsible for the final quality of work."


If possible try to pass the onus BACK to the translator - for surely even the agency can realise that however much they claim to dislike your proofreading, the original was far worse.

Good luck!
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Sarah McDowell
Sarah McDowell  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 00:47
Member (2012)
Russian to English
+ ...
I am in a similar situation at the moment Jun 2, 2013

I am so glad that I found this comment thread! It's good to know that I'm not the only one who this has happened to.

I took on a proofreading project in the middle of May. It turned out to be more than just a simple proofreading project because the file that I received was in horrendous condition. It was filled with Russian punctuation marks, grammatical and stylistic errors and several sections were so poorly translated that it looked the same as Google Translate. Also, there were
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I am so glad that I found this comment thread! It's good to know that I'm not the only one who this has happened to.

I took on a proofreading project in the middle of May. It turned out to be more than just a simple proofreading project because the file that I received was in horrendous condition. It was filled with Russian punctuation marks, grammatical and stylistic errors and several sections were so poorly translated that it looked the same as Google Translate. Also, there were some parts of the document that were still left in Russian that I had to translate even though it wasn't part of my job description.

I fixed the file after many hours of work spent copy editing, translating, DTP and proofreading. I sent in the file and my invoice along with an extensive explanation of how much work was involved and what a poor state the document was in when I received it. I received no response and there was silence from them for some weeks. Now all of a sudden they sent me an e-mail saying that their client's editor (the work was for an agency) made some changes to my file and could I please comment on these changes.

I looked at the file and some of the changes were acceptable and could be attributed to just a matter of preference (often there's more than one way to possibly say something) but some of the changes the client's editor made were ridiculous and ungrammatical. One thing they did was add quotation marks around all the company names that I had previously removed.

In Russian it is common to place quotation marks around company names, for example,
ЗАО «Марс» (company name is not real and invented by me for example). When company names are translated into English we remove these quotation marks. If any other Russian to English translators can also give their thoughts on this issue, I would greatly appreciate it.

The editor thinks that quotation marks around company names should be included in the English translation. Also, it is not clear how many people made changes to the document after my work was done. I think that it was looked at by more than just the one person.

So I spent over an hour of my time yesterday taking off all the quotation marks and making all the appropriate changes to the file to make it decent again. Then I get a reply from that agency saying that I "did not make enough comments on the file" and "please comment on the other changes as well". I actually made several comments on the file but apparently it wasn't enough and now they need more comments. I don't understand exactly why these comments are necessary. As many of you know, it is often easier to just make the changes rather than write comments on every little error.

I should add that I haven't been paid for the proofreading that I did over two weeks ago and now they expect me to do more work. They also did not mention whether they would pay me for the new round of changes and comments. I am assuming that since they didn't mention it they expect me to do this for no additional payment on top of the amount that I already billed them for.

It seems that they doubt my knowledge of English. I am the one who is a native speaker of English, not them. I would appreciate other translators' advice on how to proceed further.

Thanks!
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Kay Denney
Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 07:47
French to English
They might be trying to rip you off... Jun 2, 2013

Either they really don't believe that you're competent and they are convinced they are right, or they are trying to get out of paying you.

Mostly when they are trying to get out of paying you they don't bother with the nitty-gritty, but they may want to get away with only paying half or something like that.

I don't speak Russian but I would be seriously bemused (!) to read a text in English with the names of companies in inverted commas.

I would go for Ch
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Either they really don't believe that you're competent and they are convinced they are right, or they are trying to get out of paying you.

Mostly when they are trying to get out of paying you they don't bother with the nitty-gritty, but they may want to get away with only paying half or something like that.

I don't speak Russian but I would be seriously bemused (!) to read a text in English with the names of companies in inverted commas.

I would go for Christine's sound advice provided for the OP and provide sound references for all points raised - on the first page or two, just to show that you do know your stuff - then tell them that if they want you to do that for the entire document it will cost them whatever you charge by the hour, as it amounts to a free English lesson. They did ask for comments in the beginning, not just for corrections, so you should give them either comments or at least explain why you're not prepared to comment!

I recently had a Dutch client who raged that his English was not that bad when I practically re-wrote his brochure blurb that he had written directly in English. I explained that his English was really great, for speaking and fine for writing quick mails, but for a brochure you needed more than just decent English, you needed a professional writer. He was in the car rental line of business and obviously didn't have the flair for language needed to write advertising material. I pointed out that he probably didn't have the flair in his native language either, he would have asked a professional too. Only difference being that he could probably tell that the professional had come up with something that sounded smooth and slick in Dutch, whereas in English he's busy trying to understand and could well be oblivious to "literary" considerations.

And I added that I would probably go bankrupt very quickly if I tried my hand at renting cars out, because I know nothing about it, even if I have rented one or two in the past.
A little bit of smarming can go a long way !
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SwissLocalizer
SwissLocalizer
Switzerland
English to French
+ ...
To Sarah Jun 2, 2013


I took on a proofreading project in the middle of May. It turned out to be more than just a simple proofreading project because the file that I received was in horrendous condition. It was filled with Russian punctuation marks, grammatical and stylistic errors and several sections were so poorly translated that it looked the same as Google Translate. Also, there were some parts of the document that were still left in Russian that I had to translate even though it wasn't part of my job description.


This won't help you for the case being, but what you describe is a very common scheme in the Russian-to-French language pair, and probably even more so in your language pair. If they couldn't choose a proper translator in the first place, why should they behave professionally with their proofreader?


In Russian it is common to place quotation marks around company names, for example,
ЗАО «Марс» (company name is not real and invented by me for example). When company names are translated into English we remove these quotation marks. If any other Russian to English translators can also give their thoughts on this issue, I would greatly appreciate it.


Could you send them a link to the contact page of some well-know American brand, where they would see that this is the proper way to write company names in English?


It seems that they doubt my knowledge of English. I am the one who is a native speaker of English, not them. I would appreciate other translators' advice on how to proceed further.


Could the agency ask a third party (eg a Russian-speaking translator based in the US) to check the first paragraphs and confirm the changes?

If you still can't reach an agreement, I think you should just make the required changes (even if they are ridiculous) taking as little time as possible. If they ask for comments, tell them it should be the other way round: the client sends a detailed list with the points where they disagree. Very probable that they will suddenly forget about that...


 
Sarah McDowell
Sarah McDowell  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 00:47
Member (2012)
Russian to English
+ ...
I did make the changes Jun 2, 2013


If you still can't reach an agreement, I think you should just make the required changes (even if they are ridiculous) taking as little time as possible. If they ask for comments, tell them it should be the other way round: the client sends a detailed list with the points where they disagree. Very probable that they will suddenly forget about that...


Dear Florian,

Thanks for your reply to my post. I think you missed the part where I said that I already made the changes. The problem is that not only do they want changes, but they want comments for every single change. There were over 200 changes and there is no way I am going to be able to do that quickly.

I looked at the document again last night. It is clear that someone else has made changes to my text before the client even saw it. So as far as I am concerned it's not "my" text anymore. Not that it ever actually was because I can't be responsible for the poor translation that someone did before I proofread it.

Thanks anyways for your reply.

Sarah


 
SwissLocalizer
SwissLocalizer
Switzerland
English to French
+ ...
Misunderstanding Jun 3, 2013

[quote]Sarah McDowell wrote:


Thanks for your reply to my post. I think you missed the part where I said that I already made the changes. The problem is that not only do they want changes, but they want comments for every single change. There were over 200 changes and there is no way I am going to be able to do that quickly.

I looked at the document again last night. It is clear that someone else has made changes to my text before the client even saw it. So as far as I am concerned it's not "my" text anymore. Not that it ever actually was because I can't be responsible for the poor translation that someone did before I proofread it.

Sarah


If I understand now correctly, they want you to comment changes that are at least partially not even yours? It sounds a bit over the top, I would clearly refuse to do that and tell them this is by no means included in the rate. I don't know who your client is, but I worked several years ago for a big Russian agency that had similar "своеобразные" practices. Needless to say, things are much easier since I stopped working for them.

Floriane


 
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 07:47
English to Polish
+ ...
My $0.02 Jun 3, 2013

Sarah, I'm sorry to hear about what has just happened to you. For what it's worth, I sometimes run into the same problems with proofreaders, editors and reviewers because their English is not stellar. This even includes some native speakers, who just don't know that much about English or writing, or are at odds with the rules while playing by ear.

For years, I've been trying to deal away with the above once and for all, but the only feasible solution I can think of is to charge high
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Sarah, I'm sorry to hear about what has just happened to you. For what it's worth, I sometimes run into the same problems with proofreaders, editors and reviewers because their English is not stellar. This even includes some native speakers, who just don't know that much about English or writing, or are at odds with the rules while playing by ear.

For years, I've been trying to deal away with the above once and for all, but the only feasible solution I can think of is to charge higher rates than the cheap bracket is able to afford, given as the high payers tend to be more aware of what they're paying for.

However. even that solution is not perfect. Basically, you need to get rid of elements of what common law refers to as the 'satisfaction' standard and focus instead on objective service levels. Where clients or outsourcers are willing to work under your Terms of Service, great. Where not, you have to negotiate appropriate clauses and stick to your guns if any monkey business subsequently occurs.

The problems in your situation are:

– a ridiculous delay in proposing edits (those guys need to get their process in order; isn't a chain of agencies involved by the way?),
– a claim to your time on the basis that you did a proof job a while ago on that translation,
– shifting the onus of a bad source on you,
– shifting the onus of a bad translation on you in the first place,
– the use of a non-native editor without the necessary knowledge.

Quite a handful, innit?

All of the above should be precluded by your terms of service or your individual contracts. (While it remains a pity that it takes legalese to make people respect the basics.)

***

Apart from what relates to Sarah's situation, I would also like to comment on the original discussion. Translation is not solely about nice writing in the target language. Even if it were, nice writing can't be reduced to just being a native speaker. It obviously sucks to have a clueless foreigner question your use of your own mother tongue, but as a foreign-born English translator I have come across quite a couple of clueless native speakers as well. I routinely see errors in the writing of native linguists on discussion boards such as this one (including this thread, actually). Being a native speaker is a tremendous advantage, but that's it. It's hard for a foreigner to reach the top echelons of speakers or writers (or translators, especially of texts intended for publication and especially without involving a separate editor), but it's certainly possible to speak and write better than 95% of native users of at least some languages (achieving better results doesn't mean they come more easily, by the way).

As several other non-native users of English in this thread have already mentioned, English translations made or edited by native speakers often betray a lack of deep consideration for the non-English source, which sometimes produces disappointing results, sometimes to the point of real annoyance, especially where the register and emphasis are not paid heed to. (This is a bit of a general problem with modern linguists, though.) In diplomacy, there used to be a rule that translation or interpretation should be offered by native speakers of the source language rather than the target one.

Still, it shouldn't be the standard order of business for native speakers who are professional linguists to be reviewed by non-native speakers, other than, perhaps, junior linguists being proofread by senior linguists or professionals to make sure their tenses and commas are right and perhaps word choice (especially where Latinate words are used). I wouldn't normally expect decent formal grammar and fully correct syntax from a twenty-something with fresh ink on a bachelor's degree translating legal texts or philosophical treatises, native speaker or not. As a sworn translator but even as a simple legal translator, I'd definitely not just stamp such a translation without reviewing it in depth. And I'm pretty sure I'd found a handful of problems with grammar, syntax and punctuation in most cases.
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A non-native client who thinks he knows my native language better than me!







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