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Glossary entry

Dutch term or phrase:

tienmanschap / tienman

English translation:

decemvirate / decemvir

Added to glossary by Michael Beijer
    The asker opted for community grading. The question was closed on 2015-03-05 09:54:08 based on peer agreement (or, if there were too few peer comments, asker preference.)
Mar 2, 2015 09:35
9 yrs ago
1 viewer *
Dutch term

Tienmanschap-tienmannen

Dutch to English Other Religion Translation of "Tienmannen" or "Tienmanschap"
I am currently stuck on a religious translation, more specifically the translation of tienmannen or tienmanschap.

Context is the following:
De vijf, die gevallen zijn, waren:
Reges, koningen.
Consules, burgemeesters.
Decemviri, tienmannen.
Dictatores, bevelhebbers.

Does anyone know the correct translation for "tienmannen" or "tienmanschap".

Thanks in advance.
Proposed translations (English)
4 +3 decemvirate / decemvir
3 +1 Ten Men
Change log

Mar 5, 2015 10:48: Michael Beijer Created KOG entry

Discussion

Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 3, 2015:
You should of course use the plural in your translation: decemvirates
Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 3, 2015:
And more specifically: Revelation 17:9,10

Zeven hoofden, zijn zeven bergen, op welke de vrouw zit. En zijn ook zeven koningen; de vijf zijn gevallen, en de een is, en de ander is nog niet gekomen.

The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; (but when he does come, he must remain for a little while).

As I understand it, in this context 'kings' are interpreted to refer to forms of administration.

This explains:

Deze regeringsvormen zijn niet tegelijk geweest, maar het één volgde na het andere, zoals blijkt uit hfdst. 17:10: En zijn ook zeven koningen, de vijf zijn gevallen, en de één is; de ander is nog niet gekomen. De vijf, die gevallen zijn, waren:
Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 3, 2015:
As far as your Bible passages are concerned I would use TNIV - I like this version, for example:

Revelation 13:1: .... And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.

and then:

Monarchies are commonly called beasts in scriptures.

etc.
Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 3, 2015:
@Sandra I think I would use 'decemvirate'.
Since it is not about a specific council of ten men but just about a Roman system/form of administration. It means 'tienmannen' is used in the general sense of decemvirate.
The target audience of this text is most likely a very specific group of people so you don't need to use terms that can be understood by the man in the street.

Deze regeringsvormen zijn niet tegelijk geweest, maar het één volgde na het andere, zoals blijkt uit hfdst. 17:10: En zijn ook zeven koningen, de vijf zijn gevallen, en de één is; de ander is nog niet gekomen. De vijf, die gevallen zijn, waren:
Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 3, 2015:
Well, Sandra, that's no mean stuff.
I found what I needed.
Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 3, 2015:
@Sandra This was something that I did not understand.
You indicated this was about a religious text while the question seemed to pertain exclusively to Roman administration.

So I thought initially your question perhaps referrred to the system of 'tienden', a percentage of people's income that is meant for the priests and people who perform certain specific tasks.
It doesn't look like that though.

Could you be a bit more specific about this religious context?
Could you provide us with a couple of sentences or so?

Thank you.
Michael Beijer Mar 3, 2015:
Thanks for the extra info Sandra! "Council of ten" sounds good to me!
Sandra Dedeyne (asker) Mar 3, 2015:
Just a quick update to some questions you have all asked. The text refers to bible text and is actually an interview with a priest, quoting certain parts of the Bible.

I hope this helps with the context. I've used Michaels translation - council of ten. I thought it fitted the context the best.
Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 2, 2015:
But that is exactly my answer Barend!!

reply:

Well, that's not my fault (...you gave this anwer).

= kind of humour.
Michael Beijer Mar 2, 2015:
I'm not blaming you for anything. I just feel that sometimes people would rather fly to the moon and back before giving my answers a fair chance. I laid it all out, nice and clear. Hell, I even moved stuff from this discussion box into my answer, at your request, so as to avoid annoying everyone.

To be honest, I was already happy that a certain individual didn't immediately slap a big red <font size="2" color="red">"Disagree"</font> on my answer, for emotional reasons, as seems to be happening with most of my answers lately.
Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 2, 2015:
Well, that's not my fault.
Michael Beijer Mar 2, 2015:
But that is exactly my answer Barend!! "tienmanschap / tienman = decemvirate / decemvir"

I even gave extensive, clear references (Van Dale NL-EN, Wolters’ Handwoordenboek Nederland-Engels, Van Dale Groot woordenboek van de Nederlandse taal, and the OED), all saying exactly that.
Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 2, 2015:
I actually came to the conclusion there is an English equivalent after all.

You yourself are the source of confusion. I am the one who does not know.
I ask you English guys is there an English equivalent.
One English guy says no there isn't, you would need a description.
Another one says, please can you give us more context.
So what should I think?

Asking the question to Phil made me ask the question to myself and I found this:

http://www.onelook.com/?w=decemvirate&ls=a

decemviri = the Latin term
decemvirate = the English equivalent or so it would seem.
Michael Beijer Mar 2, 2015:
@Barend: No need to look very far, it is obvious from all the basic dictionaries that it's a synonym (see the latest additions to my answer, e.g.). To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to achieve here. I gave a whole list of English synonyms:

"Decemviri, a body of ten rulers, councillors, etc."
"Decemviri, a council or ruling body of ten"
"Decemviri, a commission of ten"
"Decemviri, a council of ten"
"Decemviri, a board of ten"
Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 2, 2015:
Phil Perhaps we did not understand each other correctly.
Anyway, it does seem that 'tienmannen' in Dutch can be used as a valid Dutch equivalent of 'decemviri'.

See for example: http://tinyurl.com/n74qkw6
You can check other references for yourself.

This means we Dutch guys have a valid Dutch equivalent for 'decemviri', that is 'tienmannen'.
Perhaps not many Dutch people are familiar with this term, but it is a valid equivalent.

The question is, how about the British or the Americans?
Do they have a valid equivalent as well, regardless of the question how many people are familiar with this possible term?

If you have solutions or possible solutions, then please offer them in the answer or reference section.
Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 2, 2015:
Phil anglicized?

Ik denk dat er een belangrijk verschil is.

Jouw benaming (dutchified) kan de suggestie wekken dat het hier gaat om een letterlijke vertaling van 'tienmannen' met 'Ten Men', wat opgevat zou kunnen worden als Dunglish en een 'false friend'. Dat is echter niet het geval.

Het is een letterlijke vertaling in het Engels van een Latijnse term, die dan al dan niet bruikbaar kan zijn als equivalente Engelse term.

Ik denk het niet maar daar bemoei ik me verder niet mee.
philgoddard Mar 2, 2015:
Barend What is the difference between my "Dutchified version of the Latin term" and your "literal and probably useless translation"?
There is no English equivalent - it's a specifically Roman concept. Depending on the context and readership, you could either leave it on its own in Latin or add a sentence of explanation.
Michael Beijer Mar 2, 2015:
Happy now? (moved and deleted my last 2 comments) Sadly, sometimes discussions morph into answers. Answers don't always appear in a sudden flash of intuitive genius, fully formed and shining with perfect light.
Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 2, 2015:
Answers are supposed to be offered in the answer section.
Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 2, 2015:
The question is, what is an English equivalent of Decemviri. This is what the asker needs.

Reges, --> koningen --> kings
Consules --> burgemeesters --> mayors
Decemviri --> tienmannen --> ......
Dictatores --> bevelhebbers --> commanders
Barend van Zadelhoff Mar 2, 2015:
It is not true this is a Dutchified version of 'decemviri'.

It just a literal, and probably useless, translation of the Latin term.
The Wiki article is English.

Decemviri (singular decemvir) is a Latin term meaning "Ten Men" which designates any such commission in the Roman Republic (cf. Triumviri, Three Men). Different types of decemvirate include the writing of laws with consular imperium (legibvs scribvndis consvlari imperio), the judging of litigation (stlitibvs ivdicandis), the making of sacrifices (sacris facivndis), and the distribution of public lands (agris dandis adsignandis).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decemviri
Michael Beijer Mar 2, 2015:
@Sandra: Can you lift the sluier a bit? Any more info on the era, country, your text, etc.?
Michael Beijer Mar 2, 2015:
:| Nee, freek, maar het woord "tienmannen" betekent in deze context méér dan alleen "ten men", het is een vernederlandste versie van "Decemviri", en daar gaat het om in die lijstje.
freekfluweel Mar 2, 2015:
Tienmannen zegt in het NLs ook niks zullen weinig nlers zijn die begrijpen wat ermee bedoeld wordt...
Michael Beijer Mar 2, 2015:
@phil: Indeed, "tienmannen" is just Dutch for "decemviri (the plural of "decemvir").

I doubt translating it as "Ten Men" is going to make much sense to anyone.

A translation that is not only correct but also says something to the reader will of course depend on the context (e.g., which era are we talking about here? Roman? Venetian? See e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Ten ), which is in short supply here. Yeah, sure, "decemviri" + "tienmannen" / "tien mannen" means "ten men", but how useful is that?
philgoddard Mar 2, 2015:
You can just ignore it. It's a Dutchified version of decemviri.

Proposed translations

+3
11 mins
Dutch term (edited): tienmanschap / tienman
Selected

decemvirate / decemvir

Van Dale NL-EN:

tienmanschap, het

1. samengesteld bestuur:
decemvirate
commission / council / board of ten

2. (Romeinse geschiedenis)
decemvirate

tienman de (m.)
(Romeinse geschiedenis)
decemvir

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 mins (2015-03-02 09:48:52 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Van Dale Groot woordenboek van de Nederlandse taal (14e editie, 2005):

tienmanschap
1· uit tien leden samengesteld bestuur enz.
1a(Romeinse geschiedenis) decemviraat

tienman
1· (Romeinse geschiedenis) lid van een tienmanschap
synoniem: decemvir


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 mins (2015-03-02 09:51:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Wolters’ Handwoordenboek Nederland-Engels (20e druk, 1994):

tienmanschap = decemvirate
tienman = decemvir

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 29 mins (2015-03-02 10:04:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Oxford English Dictionary (OED) - Second Edition (1989):

• decemvirate

(dɪˈsɛmvɪreɪt)

[ad. L. decemvirāt-us, f. decemvir: see -ate1.]

The office or government of decemvirs; a body of decemvirs.

   1620 E. Blount Horæ Subsec. 233 After the Decemvirate, they returned againe to Consuls.    
1704 Hearne Duct. Hist. (1714) I. 369 The Decemvirate regarded neither Senate nor people, but cut off the most considerable Citizens of both sorts.    
1838 Arnold Hist. Rome I. xv. 302 The decemvirate seems indeed to have exhibited the perfect model of an aristocratical royalty, vested not in one person but in several.

b. (transf.) A body of ten rulers, councillors, etc., as the Venetian Council of Ten. Also attrib.

   1651 Howell Venice 13 They read the letters addressd to the Decemvirat Colledg.    
1653 Sir E. Nicholas in N. Papers (Camden) II. 12 The room‥is now possessed by the Decemvirate or ten Worthies that now reign far more absolutely than ever any King did in England.    
c 1776 Sir W. Jones Let. Ld. Althorpe, If such a decemvirate should ever attempt to restore our constitutional liberty by constitutional means.

--------------------------
• decemvir

[L., sing. of decemvirī, originally decem virī ‘the ten men’.]


Rom. Antiq. (pl.) A body of ten men acting as a commission, council, college, or ruling authority; esp. the two bodies of magistrates appointed in 451 and 450 b.c. to draw up a code of laws (the laws of the Twelve Tables) who were, during the time, entrusted with the supreme government of Rome.

   [1579 North Plutarch (1612) 864 Cicero‥did one day sharply reproue and inueigh against this law of the Decemuiri.]    
1600 Holland Livy iii. xxxii. 109 Agreed it was that there should be created Decemvirs above all appeale.    
1781 Gibbon Decl. & F. xliv, The Decemvirs, who sullied by their actions the honour of inscribing, on brass, or wood, or ivory, the Twelve Tables of the Roman Laws.    
1838 Arnold Hist. Rome I. 253 A commission invested with such extraordinary powers as those committed to the decemvirs.    
1868 Smith Sm. Dict. Rom. Antiq. 127/2 Decemviri Litibus Judicandis‥Augustus transferred to these decemvirs the presidency in the courts of the centumviri.

b. (transf.) A council or ruling body of ten, as the Council of Ten of the Venetian Republic.

   1615 R. Cocks Diary 2 Aug., I had much adowe with Zanzabars desemvery.    
1821 Byron Two Foscari i. 188. I look Forward to be one day of the decemvirs.    
1832 tr. Sismondi's Ital. Rep. ix. 202 The decemvirs dared unblushingly propose to their colleagues, etc.

c. (sing.) A member of such a body.

   1703 Rowe Fair Penit. iv. i. (Jod.), He slew his only daughter To save her from the fierce Decemvir's lust.    
1744 tr. Livy I. 272 (Jod.) C. Julius, a decemvir, appointed him a day for taking his trial.    
1849 Grote Greece ii. lxxii. (1862) VI. 351 Like the Decemvir Appius Claudius at Rome.

Hence deˈcemvirship, the office of decemvir.

   1600 Holland Livy 115 (R.) The decemvirship, and the conditions of his colleagues together, had so greatly changed.

--------------------------
• decemviral, a.

[ad. L. decemvirāl-is, f. decemvir: see -al1.]

Of or pertaining to the decemvirs.

   1600 Holland Livy 127 (R.) The decemvirall lawes (which now are knowne by the name of the twelve Tables).    
1651 Howell Venice 13 Three Senators‥have power to summon the Decemvirall Colledg.    
1833 Thirlwall in Philol. Museum II. 477 The advantages of the consular over the decemviral form of government.    
1852 Grote Greece ii. lxxiv. IX. 416 His decemviral governments or Dekarchies.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2015-03-02 15:44:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

########################################

I have made what I think might work bold:

1. "a commission / council / board of ten"

2. "The office or government of decemvirs; a body of decemvirs. "

3. "A body of ten rulers, councillors, etc., as the Venetian Council of Ten."

4. "A body of ten men acting as a commission, council, college, or ruling authority; esp. the two bodies of magistrates appointed in 451 and 450 b.c. to draw up a code of laws (the laws of the Twelve Tables) who were, during the time, entrusted with the supreme government of Rome. "

5. "A council or ruling body of ten, as the Council of Ten of the Venetian Republic. "

6. "A body of ten rulers, councillors, etc."

7. "a body of decemvirs."

Hence, one of the following might work:

"Decemviri, a body of ten rulers, councillors, etc."
"Decemviri, a council or ruling body of ten"
"Decemviri, a commission of ten"
"Decemviri, a council of ten"
"Decemviri, a board of ten"

HOWEVER, without more context, it is still just guesswork really.

########################################

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs (2015-03-02 18:16:50 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Van Dale Groot woordenboek van de Nederlandse taal (14e editie, 2005):

"Decemviri"

Lat., ook "X viri" geschreven

tienmannen, college van tien mannen met buitengewone volmachten dat in 451-449 v.Chr. in plaats van de twee consuls aan het hoofd van de staat stond en twaalf wetten tot stand bracht die min of meer als grondwet golden

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs (2015-03-02 18:19:14 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Van Dale Groot woordenboek van de Nederlandse taal (14e editie, 2005):

decemvir:

de (m.); decemviri, decemviren
(1872) Lat., van decem (tien) + vir (man)

1· (Romeinse geschiedenis) lid van een decemviraat
synoniem: tienman

decemviraat:

het; decemviraten
1· (Romeinse geschiedenis) tienmanschap, m.n. het tienmanschap dat in het oude Rome de wetten opstelde (451-449 v.Chr.)
Peer comment(s):
agree Dr Lofthouse
8 hrs
Thanks!
agree Barend van Zadelhoff : 'decemvirate' seems to be the English equivalent of the Latin term 'decemviri'.
8 hrs
Thanks Barend, much appreciated!
agree Kitty Brussaard : Thoroughly researched and substantiated, well done!
1 day 6 hrs
Thanks Kitty!
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
+1
3 mins

Ten Men

Peer comment(s):
agree writeaway
1 hr
Thanks!
neutral Michael Beijer : Dus jij zou die regel vertalen als "Decemviri, Ten Men." ? Vreemd hoor. Ook met die hoofdletters?
5 hrs
Something went wrong...
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