Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
manches forts et...en disproportion avec
English translation:
handles which are overly large and poorly proportioned
Added to glossary by
angela3thomas
Feb 21, 2017 19:09
7 yrs ago
French term
manches forts et...en disproportion avec
French to English
Art/Literary
Archaeology
ancient art
Hello!
DOC: 1907 Museum catalog of ancient Egyptian mirrors - Introduction, section about New Kingdom mirrors. Note: GLYPH = placeholders for the actual hieroglyphs.
CONTEXT: Ce qui caractérise les miroirs de la seconde époque thébaine, ce sont certaines particularités de style, tenant à la fois aux proportions des formes et au tour de main de la technique. Les oreilles du chapiteau GLYPH s'accentuent (nos 44019, 44022, etc.); une prédilection pour les ***manches forts et parfois même en disproportion avec le disque*** se constate en bien des cas, et notamment dans les miroirs nos 19508 (pl. VI), 44019 (pl. VII sic), 44039 sic (pl. IX).
PLATES:
https://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015084647570?urlappend=;se... Pl. VI
https://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015084647570?urlappend=;se... Pl. V center
https://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015084647570?urlappend=;se... Pl. IX either center or right
TRANSLATION ATTEMPT: The ears of the capital GLYPH are accentuated (No. 44019 [Pl. V], 44022 [Pl. V], etc.); a predilection for ***strong/solid?/robust? handles, which are sometimes even disproportionate to*** the disk, is seen in many cases, especially in mirrors No. 19508 (Pl. VI), 44019 (Pl. VII sic), 44039 sic (Pl. IX).
QUERY: Not sure what a "fort" handle is: perhaps just large and sometimes even too large for the disk? Actually, to me it seems like the disk is too small for the handles.
Thank you in advance for suggestions!
DOC: 1907 Museum catalog of ancient Egyptian mirrors - Introduction, section about New Kingdom mirrors. Note: GLYPH = placeholders for the actual hieroglyphs.
CONTEXT: Ce qui caractérise les miroirs de la seconde époque thébaine, ce sont certaines particularités de style, tenant à la fois aux proportions des formes et au tour de main de la technique. Les oreilles du chapiteau GLYPH s'accentuent (nos 44019, 44022, etc.); une prédilection pour les ***manches forts et parfois même en disproportion avec le disque*** se constate en bien des cas, et notamment dans les miroirs nos 19508 (pl. VI), 44019 (pl. VII sic), 44039 sic (pl. IX).
PLATES:
https://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015084647570?urlappend=;se... Pl. VI
https://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015084647570?urlappend=;se... Pl. V center
https://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015084647570?urlappend=;se... Pl. IX either center or right
TRANSLATION ATTEMPT: The ears of the capital GLYPH are accentuated (No. 44019 [Pl. V], 44022 [Pl. V], etc.); a predilection for ***strong/solid?/robust? handles, which are sometimes even disproportionate to*** the disk, is seen in many cases, especially in mirrors No. 19508 (Pl. VI), 44019 (Pl. VII sic), 44039 sic (Pl. IX).
QUERY: Not sure what a "fort" handle is: perhaps just large and sometimes even too large for the disk? Actually, to me it seems like the disk is too small for the handles.
Thank you in advance for suggestions!
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 | handles which are overyly large and poorly proportioned |
Christopher Crockett
|
Proposed translations
2 days 22 hrs
Christopher Crockett
Native in English
Specializes in field
M.A., Ph.D. Historian/Art Historian
Native in: English 
Works in: French to English, English
Related KudoZ points
:
131
Selected
handles which are overyly large and poorly proportioned
[there is a] "tendency for the handles to be overly large and poorly proportioned in relation to the mirror above them."
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Discussion
I just want to say to all who have participated here, I'm very grateful for all the input.
Hathitrust.org is available for anyone (at least with a U.S. url) to read, but items there can only be downloaded by subscription. My connection to The Innernets (as Duhbya Bush so charmingly called all of them) is at Indiana University, which does subscribe.
Yes, the Heidleberg site is a very nice one --and should have this, though it specializes in/prioritizes German stuff (and perhaps just assumes that the BN will/should have it).
But all of these sites share a difficulty in their search functions --books.Google is the worst, but at least it has an excuse, since it's not an "official" library site.
sorry.
c
'Oversized' might work (but can still tend to be seen as a term of approval), but I'd personally steer clear of qualitative terms like 'robust'. You might want to consider 'chunky', though it is hardly appropriate for the period!
Different Stokes, I suppose; and, Any Port in a Storm.
"Well, with all those willowy figures in Art Nouveau, one can sort of understand where he was coming from, I guess ;-) Not a 'portly handle' to be seen anywhere..."
From his Wiki page,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Aaron_Bénédite
I would assume that, as a curator at the Louvre (and the son of a curator at the Louvre), his tastes were closer to those of the Ecole des Beaux Arts than of proto-hippies like Mucha and Guimard.
Mater of fact, he was probably instrumental in tearing out Guimard's magnificent metro stops
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/8b/8a/ba/8b8a...
As befits the capital of a country which had just "won" the First Collective Acute Psychotic Episode with more "sober" ones:
http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/27/2751...
I don't know why I can access the archive copy fine, but you're not the only one who's told me they had problems. I couldn't find it at gallica either and it wasn't for lack of trying. Last I checked it's still not up at heidelberg and they have the best quality scans! http://www.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/Englisch/Welcome.html I couldn't find at https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/ New York Public Library's digital collections either.
I'm afraid that the internet is going the way of TV, just an ad machine.
"...one that is driven entirely by his own late-19th c. aesthetic."
Well, with all those willowy figures in Art Nouveau, one can sort of understand where he was coming from, I guess ;-) Not a 'portly handle' to be seen anywhere...
As I've said, I think that, yes, Benedicti is indeed being critical here (and not just "mildly") --he's really making a judgement about the "maladroit" (though he doesn't use that word) relative proportions of disque and manche in these later mirrors; and one that is driven entirely by his own late-19th c. aesthetic.
It is discouraging to see that someone with a mere B.A., M.A. and Ph.D. (a.b.d.) like myself cannot find a book on the archive.org site --nor on gallica.bnf.fr.
Books.google.com *used* to be the worst site to actually find stuff on --but it seems that that might no longer be the case.
And the idea that the copy on archive.org is actually usable is even more discouraging for those of us who dream of the day (soon!) when "everything will be available on-line" --en principe.
The damned things are just too "fat" --but you can't use that word, because of what Tony said, and the fact that you might be accused of being biased against the calorically-challenged. Non-Trump fans would Object.
I think, btw, that we might entertain the bizarre notion that these more formidable handles in the Second Theban Epoch could have been due to purely utilitarian reasons --rather than aesthetic considerations (a "degeneration" of skill or gou^t).
What if the liturgical ceremonies in which these objects played such an important role had undergone some kind of elaboration which *demanded* that the handles become "fatter"?
Fortunately, your translation duties do not (necessarily) demand that you become an expert on the changes in Egyptian religious ceremonial liturgies in the Middle Kingdom.
'largish' seems to me totally out of register, and could in any case be seen as approving rather than (as here, I get the feeling) mildly critical.
'ample' seems to me quite out of place — and again, tends to suggest a desirable quality: her ample boosm / the child hid in her ample skirts.
I'm almost inclined towards something like '(almost) clumsy', emphasizing that the largeness was perhaps not very æsthetically suitable; or just 'rather large' (or 'on the large side'), which is arguably more acceptable in register than 'largish'.
substantial, sizable, largish, ample
NOTE: The book was also digitized by archive.org: https://archive.org/details/miroirs00bene
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Aaron_Bénédite
notes that he "died in Luxor, Egypt, shortly after visiting the tomb of Tutankhamun, further adding to the legend of the curse of the pharaoh."
An interesting fellow (and innocent victim of Carter's Folly).
However, I'd vote against "fat" --even though that is (at least part of) what he means by saying that the proportions don't fit what a 19th c. French academic thinks "proper" proportions should be.
"the handle is out of proportion with the mirror itself" (I.e., yes, it's too "fat," but it's also too short, relatively speaking --if it were longer, it could be just as fat, but would be better proportioned relative to the whole ensemble.)
https://books.google.com/books?id=R7BDAAAAYAAJ&source
It's not available from archive.org.
And, in a full half hour's looking, I can't find it on the gallica.bnf.fr site --though it looks like the Lieberry Scientists have been messing around with the search functions on that previously decent site, and I have not yet determined that it is really not there (which would be astonishing).
I believe that I understand a bit about what might account for the "maladroit" appearance of these late mirrors, but need to look at them a bit more before I commit, and don't have time to do that today; perhaps early tomorrow.
Btw, I didn't realize that one can link to the Hathitrust. org pages, without a subscription. Thanks for that lesson.