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Gebouwen & Structuren en Hoera
This question was closed without grading. Reason: No acceptable answer
Jun 9, 2015 17:42
8 yrs ago
1 viewer *
Dutch term

een betrekkende houding

Dutch to English Bus/Financial Human Resources HR garbage
This whole text is garbage, so it might actually be meaningless, but I was wondering if anyone had anything clever to say about this Dutch phrase. I think it relates to involvement, or involving (the help of) others, or something like that. The author then juxtaposes it with "Maar toch de dag zelf ***een duidelijke richtinggevende communicatie*** te voeren met de vrijwilligers!" … so …?

My text (HR nonsense):

"Tijdens de dag kregen we heel wat uitdagingen maar door Smart te plannen hield dit ons niet tegen om ons doel te bereiken. Doordat ik de enorme taak verdeeld had in kleinere taken en ieder team een persoon met kennis had gegeven. Werd een uitdaging die nog nooit eerder gedaan werd, een haalbare uitdaging! Waar iedereen gelukkig en fier op terugkijkt. Ik heb dit bereikt door ***een betrekkende houding*** aan te nemen! Maar toch de dag zelf een duidelijke richtinggevende communicatie te voeren met de vrijwilligers!"

-------------------------- •••
"• HR: van verzorgend naar betrekkend
De nieuwe afspraken vragen van HR ***een betrekkende houding*** in plaats van een verzorgende houding. Dit betekent dat HR, medewerkers en leidinggevenden ondersteunt bij het scherp formuleren van ontwikkelbehoeften. Het vraagt vervolgens dat HR geen standaardlijst van te volgen opleidingen voorschotelt, maar samen met medewerkers en leidinggevenden onderzoekt via welke professionaliseringsactiviteiten de beoogde ontwikkeling het beste tot stand komt."

("handreiking professionaliseringsplan – Ter ondersteuning van hogescholen bij het opstellen van een professionaliseringsplan": http://www.zestor.nl/fileadmin/zestor/data/publicaties/Handr... )
-------------------------- •••
"Betrekkend en bewust, op school en klassenniveau, vormen in het project de twee grondhoudingen om krachtige sociale leeromgevingen tot stand te brengen en in stand te houden. Met de diagnosematrix ABCD wordt langs twee dimensies onderscheid gemaakt tussen scholen op grond van de houding ten aanzien van de sociale omgang en de omgang met conflicten: impliciet versus expliciet en curatief versus preventief. Op grond van de vier cellen werden die scholen die getypeerd worden als impliciet curatief, aanvankelijk afgeraden deel te nemen aan het project. Een expliciet preventieve, ofwel ***betrekkende houding*** wordt gezien als dichtbij het doel van C&SCO."

(UNIVERSITEIT VAN AMSTERDAM, SCO-Kohnstamm Instituut, Instituut voor de lerarenopleiding: "De effecten van het C&SCO-traject (2001 – 2005), eindrapport": http://www.sco-kohnstamminstituut.uva.nl/rapporten/pdf/sco76... )
-------------------------- •••
Proposed translations (English)
4 teamwork approach
References
A participative attitude

Discussion

Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 10, 2015:
I would refuse to translate what I don't understand. This would not make sense to me :-) whatsoever.

So I always try to get to a point where I have a high level of certainty about what is meant - but nobody is perfect - it is very important to realize this, keep analysing your own 'logic' and 'knowledge'.

When I have managed to get to this point I am able to phrase my understanding/interpretation according to my finest Dutch, or English. :-)

Once I understand the text I have limitless possibilities as far as phrasing is concerned.
I could turn a 'linguistic monster' into a 'linguistic princess'.
Brian Quigley Jun 10, 2015:
A "participatory approach" is also jargon and relates specifically to CSR where a corporation involves the local community.
Richard Purdom Jun 10, 2015:
what to do? Michael, I see our job to try and write as well as possible, and not repeat any mistakes! I quite often translate minutes, and do have to interpret what (I believe) was meant without using the same incomprehensible style. If it's really bad, I contact the PM. There's no point complaining about the source afterwards, so if i was you i'd say something now instead of handing in something you're unhappy with... Anyway, your text virtually looks like a transcript, so you must have a bit of leeway
Michael Beijer (asker) Jun 10, 2015:
@Barend: I only posted that one tiny piece of my set of six documents. I actually have a file open in Notepad and am keeping track of the worst stuff (which I can't post here, for obvious reasons), which I will send along to my client (a British agency) once I finish the job. Just to make sure they know just how bad the source text was when/if they start wondering why my translation isn't amazingly well written.

This is actually a recurring issue: what do you do when you receive a src text that is full of mistakes and just doesn't make any sense in many places/ways? Should you (a) just translate what it says, i.e., produce a faithful copy of it, or (b) produce an interpretation of what you think the author may have meant, in the process forcing it to make sense? The answer will of course depend on the target audience, your client's wishes, and many other things, but it is a problem I come across regularly, as I suspect we all do.

In a sense, what you end up doing is proofreading the source text (i.e. fixing it), while/before translating it into your target language. Translation is indeed an art.
Richard Purdom Jun 10, 2015:
more ENG BS http://www.theofficelife.com/business-jargon-dictionary-A.ht...

is er een NL woordenboek voor deze BS ook?
Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 10, 2015:
@Michael Ik ben geen Vlaming maar ik denk niet dat het taalkundig zo slecht is als jij het afschildert. Ik ben benieuwd wat Didier hier over zou kunnen zeggen.

The content is a different kettle of fish, this silly, childish mindset of those guys and girls.
Richard Purdom Jun 10, 2015:
http://www.theguardian.com/careers/careers-blog/worst-office...
Michael Beijer (asker) Jun 10, 2015:
@Barend: I was joking with my wife yesterday that, not only is it Flemish, but it looks like a dyslexic, non-native speaker of Dutch living in Belgium wrote it, who also ran parts of it through Google Translate, or maybe even translated English management stuff he/she found online into Dutch using some form of machine translation
I'm really not sure what happened to it before it was dumped on my doorstep ;)
sometimes there will even be 2 different versions of a verb/word in a sentence, perhaps indeed indicating MT was involved. really have no idea
Michael Beijer (asker) Jun 10, 2015:
@Richard: What strikes me even more is just how bad your average Dutch business person is at punctuating. Not sure if anyone has noticed this too, but I routinely come across Dutch authors who seem to think it's totally fine to just not use punctuation, leaving me guessing what is a quotation, where a comma might be missing, etc.
Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 10, 2015:
Ho ho ho... ...this is Flemish! :-)
Richard Purdom Jun 10, 2015:
yes, I see what you mean, and Dutch are good at this (generally much better than their literary skills!) That 'ownership' is horrible new ENG jargon btw. Turning the old idea of the corporation owning the worker on its head, whether it's true or not....
Barend van Zadelhoff Jun 10, 2015:
@Richard This is incorrect:

'I managed to achieve this by getting involved!

This is what this guy was doing or imagined he was doing:

I managed to achieve this by encouraging/facilitating/promoting/etc. participation of the volunteers.

If you act like this as a HR baby they call you 'participative'.

Participative leadership

Participative leaders achieve through people, through team work, and through collective involvement in the task. Participative leadership involves engendering ownership amongst the follower group so that they feel jointly responsible for the direction taken and its achievement. Participative leaders make people feel valued as an integral part of the team, and make the group itself become the focus for the team, so that they achieve through their relationships and cooperative teamwork.

http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/leadership/styles/participat...
Michael Beijer (asker) Jun 10, 2015:
@Richard: I don't think that is quite the same thing. In these documents managers are being tested by the Institute of Leadership & Management (ILM) on various leadership skills, etc.

Funnily (ho ho ho), all 6 documents are chock-full of garbage Dutch, to the point that I am left wondering whether parts of it might be a machine translation, a back translation, written by a non-native speaker, written by someone who is dyslexic, or a combination of all or some of the above ;)
Richard Purdom Jun 10, 2015:
You could simply say 'I managed to achieve this by getting involved! Even so, on the day itself, I did provide the volunteers with clear and concise instructions!' And maybe add a few more exclamation marks, just to make it even more exciting?!!!!!!!!!!!
Michael Beijer (asker) Jun 10, 2015:
Merriam-Webster's: attitude:
2. A position assumed for a specific purpose *a threatening attitude*
4a : a mental position with regard to a fact or state *a helpful attitude*
4b : a feeling or emotion toward a fact or state

approach:
3b
(1) : the taking of tentative or introductory steps for a particular purpose (as full accomplishment, discussion, acquaintance, or solicitation) *his method of approach to the subject repels most readers* *new lines of approach*
(2) : a particular manner of taking such steps *her approach was obviously friendly*
Michael Beijer (asker) Jun 10, 2015:
Oxforddictionaries.com: approach:
Def.:A way of dealing with a situation or problem
Usage examples:You are diplomatic and cautious in your approach to sticky situations.
we need a whole new approach to the job
He said instead, deciding that wouldn't be the best approach to getting his way.

Synonyms: attitude, slant, perspective, point of view, viewpoint, outlook, line of attack, line of action;
method, procedure, process, technique, MO, style, strategy, stratagem, way, manner, mode, tactic, tack, path, system, means; modus operandi (Latin)

attitude:
Def.: A settled way of thinking or feeling about something
Usage examples:
he was questioned on his attitude to South Africa
A sensitive attitude to cultural differences is necessary if the alliance is to succeed.
Our attitude to animals too often reflects our attitudes to our fellow citizens.

Synonyms: point of view, view, viewpoint, vantage point, frame of mind, way of thinking, way of looking at things, school of thought, outlook, angle, slant, perspective, reaction, stance, standpoint, position, inclination, orientation, approach;
opinion, ideas, belief, convictions, feelings, sentiments
Michael Beijer (asker) Jun 9, 2015:
Flip a digital coin? If someone would enter "adopting a participatory attitude" or "taking a participatory approach" I would selected it/them as the correct answer. I think the honour should probably go to either Didier or Phill.
Textpertise Jun 9, 2015:
With Kitty on this Agree that your proposed translation is fine.
Kitty Brussaard Jun 9, 2015:
@Michael Seems absolutely fine to me. Niets meer aan doen :-)
Michael Beijer (asker) Jun 9, 2015:
@Textpertise: Yes, I had initially translated it as "remaining open to other people’s suggestions".
Michael Beijer (asker) Jun 9, 2015:
@Kitty: Ja, ik dacht ook dat het misschien een Vlaming was die het geschreven heeft.

I was thinking of translating it as follows:

Ik heb dit bereikt door een betrekkende houding aan te nemen! Maar toch de dag zelf een duidelijke richtinggevende communicatie te voeren met de vrijwilligers!
=
I achieved this by taking a participatory approach, while still providing very clear direction in my communication with the volunteers on the day itself!
Textpertise Jun 9, 2015:
Opposing approaches Seems to me they are talking about reconciling opposing approaches to getting things done to wit: giving clear directions and yet remaining open to the involvement of participants. Encouraging their input but distilling it into a set of tasks that can be followed. How you want to say this exactly will depend on the text before you.
Kitty Brussaard Jun 9, 2015:
Empowering/engaging leadership style? Blijft lastig dit soort termen. In praktijk bedoelen verschillende mensen er vaak elk weer net verschillende dingen mee. De brontekst lijkt overigens Vlaams. De laatste zin van de door jou geciteerde brontekst impliceert dat de 'ik' aanvankelijk een 'betrekkende' (uitnodigende/faciliterende) houding aannam, waarbij het team van vrijwilligers volop de kans kreeg om zelf ideeën e.d. aan te dragen, maar dat hij/zij op de dag zelf meer 'sturing' gaf aan het team.
Michael Beijer (asker) Jun 9, 2015:
Didier's suggestion makes sense. Forgot to mention that my 6 documents are all written by the Institute of Leadership & Management (ILM)

see e.g. http://www.participatory-leadership.com/Site/A_definition_of...
Michael Beijer (asker) Jun 9, 2015:
@Phil: Just the first part. Sorry, that wasn't very clear.
philgoddard Jun 9, 2015:
Which is the bit you're translating? Is it just the first paragraph, or all the text you've posted?

Proposed translations

1 hr

teamwork approach

I have encountered this jargon a lot.
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

36 mins
Reference:

A participative attitude

Often used in management textbooks, as in paternalistic (verzorgend) leadership compared to participative (betrekkend) leadership.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 hrs (2015-06-10 07:42:31 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

An attitude is a mental position, an intention to act in a certain way.
An approach is a series of steps (f.i. an approach to perfection, or to a task).

Based on the first part, I decided on using attitude, since the author had assumed that position, but on the day itself still gave clear and direct orders. It was not a goal in itself, whereas an approach is generally set with a purpose in mind.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 hrs (2015-06-10 07:43:00 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

An attitude is a mental position, an intention to act in a certain way.
An approach is a series of steps (f.i. an approach to perfection, or to a task).

Based on the first part, I decided on using attitude, since the author had assumed that position, but on the day itself still gave clear and direct orders. It was not a goal in itself, whereas an approach is generally set with a purpose in mind.
Example sentence:

Participative or democratic leaders decentralise authority. It is characterised by consultation with the subordinates and their participation in the formulation of plans and policies.

You have to think about the candidate’s fit with the organization, whether he/she has a participative attitude, ...

Reference:

http://www.yourarticlelibrary.com/business-management/4-different-types-of-leadership-styles/2550/

http://www.sutihr.com/blog/the-guide-to-hiring-great-people-for-a-growing-organization-part-one/

Note from asker:
Thanks! Also to Phil for the improved version ("participatory approach").
@Barend: Although "participative" and "participatory" are both fine (plenty of hits for either), I don't really like the sound of "a participative/participatory <b>attitude</b>". (not that it's wrong. just don't like it.) "approach" sounds much better to my ears, and is what I am going to use
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree philgoddard : Or maybe a participatory approach. Why didn't you put this as an answer?
4 mins
Thank you, Phil. No particular reason...
agree Kitty Brussaard
28 mins
Thank you, Kitty.
agree Barend van Zadelhoff : Participative decision-making http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participative_decision-making Niks mis met 'participative'. Ik kan het verschil niet vinden tussen participative vs participatory. 'participative' lijkt me de beste keuze.
16 hrs
disagree Brian Quigley : A "participatory approach" is also jargon and relates specifically to CSR where a corporation involves the local community.
1 day 23 hrs
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