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Announcement - part 2 - option to show client "willing to work again" entries in your profile (beta)
Thread poster: Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 05:20
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
The option to turn on display of WWA entries appears in your profile Jul 10, 2006

Alicia Casal wrote:
I already have "something" on my profile.

What you have, unless I am missing something, is the option to turn it on... check visitor view and you will see nothing...


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 05:20
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks, Zsanett Jul 10, 2006

Zsanett Rozendaal-Pandur wrote:

Hi,

I think WWA is a good idea - I also see a clear difference between WWA and PH. I, for one, often do smaller assignments for the same agencies - I wouldn't put those projects in the PH, because they're too small individually, but this way I can try to get an overall feedback about my work, which is good.

Right.
One thing about making this whole feature public: perhaps it's because I've been busy this past week, but I haven't noticed this whole business, and still wouldn't have if it weren't for Gerard who put a notification on the Dutch forum (thanks, Gerard). Has it been featured on the main page - do enough users know about it?

Now that we appear to have reached a more palatable starting point, we'll begin to put out word. But bear in mind that it will time for word to get to everyone. Any assistance in putting out the message is appreciated. (Thanks, Gerard.)
Well, one happy customer here, thank you for your efforts

Thank you!


 
German Services
German Services
Local time: 04:20
English to German
+ ...
Reason for not using this feature in profile Jul 10, 2006

The only problem I see with this is that potential clients (who might find my profile through search engines or others) might think I don't want feedback displayed because I suck as a translator. Any way to add a line where the feedback would be, explaining that I opted not to use this feature to protect my clients or something like that?

Again, sorry if this has been asked before,

Patrick

[Edited at 2006-07-10 23:10]


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 05:20
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Suggest you write that in. Jul 10, 2006

German Services wrote:

The only problem I see with this is that potential clients (who might find my profile through search engines or others) might think I don't want feedback displayed because I suck as a translator. Any way to add a line where the feedback would be, explaining that I opted not to use this feature to protect my clients or something like that?

Again, sorry if this has been asked before

It did come up as a question along the lines of "Would it be ok to write that in my profile?"

Of course, you are welcome to add that sort of a comment. The consensus opinion of what to show in the absence of WWA entries seemed to be nothing at all, though, ie. no trace whatsoever.


 
Fan Gao
Fan Gao
Australia
Local time: 20:20
English to Chinese
+ ...
LWA vs WWA Jul 11, 2006

LWA vs WWA

I followed most of the 50 page thread closely and also this new one and I can't recall this being suggested but I apologise if it has because I may have missed it.

As it currently stands outsourcers have the BlueBoard with a LWA (likelihood of working again) and the new feature gives translators a WWA (willingness to work again) points system.

Before I put forward my suggestion I have a question as to why a differentiation was made between "likel
... See more
LWA vs WWA

I followed most of the 50 page thread closely and also this new one and I can't recall this being suggested but I apologise if it has because I may have missed it.

As it currently stands outsourcers have the BlueBoard with a LWA (likelihood of working again) and the new feature gives translators a WWA (willingness to work again) points system.

Before I put forward my suggestion I have a question as to why a differentiation was made between "likelihood" and "willingness" when they both essentially mean the same in this situation or is there a subtle difference I'm missing? Would it not have been easier and saved alot of confusion by calling the new feature LWA to keep it in line with the Blueboard LWA which everyone is already familiar with?

This leads to my suggestion. With outsourcers and the Blueboard, with just one positive bit of feedback and given a score of 5 then the outsourcer starts with the highest score and hopefully tries to maintain that. I'm assuming here that the majority begin with a 5 anyway which I think is a fair assumption to make unless of course they are a terrible, terrible agency:)

Translators and the current WWA begin with zero and for each bit of positive feedback their score rises.

Would it not be fairer to run the current WWA along the same lines as the LWA with a points system of 1 to 5 with their very first positive feedback giving the translator a 5 and then the same motivational technique would come into play whereby hopefully the translator would work to maintain their score of 5?

This would cut out the competitive edge of trying to get as many different feedbacks from as many different sources as possible and also stop the possible inconvenience and annoyance caused to outsourcers by being innundated with feedback requests.

There is also the possibility that alot of agencies and outsourcers won't know how the WWA system works and they may assume that it is the same points system as the Blueboard. Therefore they might look at someone's profile, ours for example, with a score of 2 and think we started out with 5 but due to negative feedback we have dropped back to 2.

At the end of the day if we are talking about being fair to everybody then wouldn't the fairest thing be to have translators and outsourcers starting off on an equal footing, at least points wise?

Actually, thinking about it more, would it be possible to change the LWA Blueboard and bring that into line with the translator's WWA? Could you change the points system for outsourcers so that instead of starting at 5 and working backwards for any negative feedback,you could just give each outsourcer a total points score on the feedback they have already received?

This may even give some of the in/out and the out/out camps a reason to try it as then it would be fair all round.

Best wishes,
Mark
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HarryHedgehog
HarryHedgehog
Germany
Local time: 10:20
German to English
Opt-outers are at a disadvantage Jul 11, 2006

Henry wrote:

German Services wrote:

The only problem I see with this is that potential clients (who might find my profile through search engines or others) might think I don't want feedback displayed because I suck as a translator. Any way to add a line where the feedback would be, explaining that I opted not to use this feature to protect my clients or something like that?

Again, sorry if this has been asked before

It did come up as a question along the lines of "Would it be ok to write that in my profile?"

Of course, you are welcome to add that sort of a comment. The consensus opinion of what to show in the absence of WWA entries seemed to be nothing at all, though, ie. no trace whatsoever.


Forgive my intrusion in this thread as an opt-outer (and non-member), but I wanted to elaborate on a point I made early in the previous monster thread:

By its nature, the mere presence of the WWA feature puts non-participants at a disadvantage, particularly now that it has been watered down to allow only positive feedback. All other things being equal, potential outsourcers will be more likely to choose partners with positive feedback than with none at all. If I choose not to participate - because I want to keep my client list confidential, for example, or just don't want to bother them with opening a ProZ account - then I run the risk of looking worse by comparison. Or, in German Services' elegant turn of phrase, they might think "I suck as a translator." And if, in a subsequent step, the site introduces feedback rankings or an option to "only display translators with feedback" in the translator search, then good night, opt-outers.

Moreover, Henry and staff have still not explained how they will verify that all feedback is genuine and not the result of manipulation or falsification (in the vernacular: stuffing the ballot box). In fact, given the widespread availability of Internet cafes and free WiFi hotspots, I don't believe verification is possible at all.

This feature was introduced as a "great marketing tool", but I just don't think its foundations are solid enough to be reliable.

Yours,
HH

[Edited at 2006-07-11 07:14]


 
Williamson
Williamson  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:20
Flemish to English
+ ...
Disclosure of your mistakes: Afraid to be disclosed as not being a "Proz"? Jul 11, 2006

My two cents : Everybody on Proz never makes mistakes. We are all supertranslators and superproz. Shouldn't better look into the mirror and say to ourselves : "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone".
-----
An example of a wwa, taken from Henry's posting of the 10th of July. (I hope the translator does not mind that my C&P-these C&P are only taken as examples).

"XX is among the best translators, in any language, we have worked with and we have been extremely sat
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My two cents : Everybody on Proz never makes mistakes. We are all supertranslators and superproz. Shouldn't better look into the mirror and say to ourselves : "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone".
-----
An example of a wwa, taken from Henry's posting of the 10th of July. (I hope the translator does not mind that my C&P-these C&P are only taken as examples).

"XX is among the best translators, in any language, we have worked with and we have been extremely satisfied with his work and would gladly work with him again".
"Job was done very professionally,I had no problems, communication was excellent"

Why? This means that mr/mrs X did a great job, but doesn't explain why? What is the value of this appraisal?
---

"He translates for XXX in admin., finance-accounting, natural resources; according to our detailed work history, his ratings are always satisfactory to excellent".
----
This tells a bit more: The agency judges the work of the translator with regard to the elements of a language: content, choice of words, syntax, mistakes against interpunction.
These values can be translated in a numerical value. If the value lowers the wwa will be lower too.
In my opinon all Wwa-evaluations should be like this.
--
When I posted a topic about translation mistakes http://www.proz.com/topic/43708 with the request to sum up more mistakes, the answers beat about the bush.
Apparently we are not humans and we are all "plus-que-parfait" and we don't want to learn from our mistakes.

However, the mistakes summed up in that topic are used in Schools for Translators and by the bigger players in the translation-market to assess the work of the (candidate) translators.

If mistakes are pinpointed a translator is aware of them and of his level of language. An overzealous reviewer who has to prove him/herself and finds mistakes which are not there, will have to motivate his/her corrections. After all language is a system of expression embedded in cultural surroundings which has rules and a structure.

Where did I hear : "There are no failures, only outcomes".?

When my work is good, I would be glad to hear it and curious to find out why.

If my work is bad, no objection against that kind of feedback either, even if it means that particular customer will never come back and I lose money. I can only learn from my mistakes, improve myself and avoid making the same mistakes in the future.

After all, the bidding system on Proz is one way of getting work, but not the only way. For example: I know where I can find construction specifications from French into Dutch and vice-versa well before the orignal text is written. Bidding for them is not done via Proz.com. Hence a customer can not evaluate my work or can (s)he?

Coupling BB and WWA is rather risky: A translation is delivered on time, there are no complaints for a month.
After a month payment does not come. You write a reminder. No answer. You give the outsourcer a 1 on the BB and your translation suddenly turns "sour" without any motivation whatsoever. This is a real risk. So, once an evaluation has been given, can it be changed?

To sum up : WWA, yes if motivation is given and possibility to change of opinion after a period of time is made impossible, just like it is impossible to change one's postings after a day or two.


[Edited at 2006-07-11 10:42]
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Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 05:20
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Response to HarryHedgehog Jul 11, 2006

HarryHedgehog wrote:
Forgive my intrusion in this thread as an opt-outer (and non-member), but I wanted to elaborate on a point I made early in the previous monster thread:

By its nature, the mere presence of the WWA feature puts non-participants at a disadvantage...

If it is "the mere presence of the WWA feature" that you now take issue with, as opposed to freedom to choose, I can only reiterate, also from last thread, that this site is an integrated whole, and that if you choose to take part in it, there is a need to interact to some degree within the context of a community. Other people here wanted this feature and are already using it.

But this thread is not for rehashing that issue. Please allow those who use WWA to concentrate on improving the feature for their own use.
Moreover, Henry and staff have still not explained how they will verify that all feedback is genuine...

We will vet to confirm that the system is being used for the intended purpose, that is all. We can not possibly "verify that all feedback is genuine", just as we can not verify that forum posts, Blue Board entries, etc. are "genuine". But that does not make KudoZ, the Blue Board, profiles, GlossPost and everything else at ProZ.com worthless.


 
Kirill Semenov
Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 11:20
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
Anonymous feedbacks Jul 11, 2006

Maybe I missed it, but is "anonymous" feedback is already implemented for the feature (when the outsourcers want to hide their name, but are registered at ProZ and, perhaps, also VIDded) ?

 
Michele Johnson
Michele Johnson  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 10:20
German to English
+ ...
WWA entries from colleagues problematic IMO Jul 11, 2006

Henry wrote:

One of the things we decided to remove for now is the option to make entries as a colleague.

Just trying to simplify for the trial period.


I also find the entries from colleagues problematic and am glad you have turned this off for now. I think the potential for abuse is high; to me, this is an even bigger "gaming" problem than the one you describe here:
http://www.proz.com/post/375518#375518

Along the lines of: You give me a good rating and I'll return the favor.

If you plan to implement entries from colleagues in the future, I think you will need to clarify the terms and conditions:


What is meant by the term "outsourcer"?

The term "outsourcer" is used broadly to refer to anyone who passes along paid work. This includes not only language companies and end clients, but also translators and interpreters who send work to colleagues when they are busy.


"Paid work" - paid by whom? I often send work to colleagues when I am busy, but this doesn't necessarily entitle me to judge their performance, does it? I do it in a variety of ways - very occasionally I actually outsource, i.e. hire someone else for money to do the work, other times I just put them in touch with the client directly. If they interact with and bill the end client themselves, this is still "paid work," isn't it? But how can I possibly be in a position to give an informed WWA in this case?

I haven't completely thought through all the ramifications yet but my gut feeling is that if you're going to have such a system, the "outsourcers" who make WWA entries should be actually registered as outsourcers. (For the record, I am currently in the "out/out" camp.)

[Edited at 2006-07-11 13:48]


 
Charlie Bavington
Charlie Bavington  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:20
French to English
"Error on page" Jul 11, 2006

Having posted a couple of technical points on the third page of this thread yesterday, I thought I'd check back to see if they had been quietly resolved. Or indeed, that I had been mistaken (as I hinted).

I now find the errror message "Error on page" appears at the bottom of the screen, and access to WWA is thus impossible.

Which leads me to conclude that at least some people must be commenting on this fe
... See more
Having posted a couple of technical points on the third page of this thread yesterday, I thought I'd check back to see if they had been quietly resolved. Or indeed, that I had been mistaken (as I hinted).

I now find the errror message "Error on page" appears at the bottom of the screen, and access to WWA is thus impossible.

Which leads me to conclude that at least some people must be commenting on this feature (of which I am not exactly a fervent supporter, for various reasons) without even looking at it, since it appears to be impossible to do so
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German Services
German Services
Local time: 04:20
English to German
+ ...
Neutral statement Jul 11, 2006

HarryHedgehog wrote:

Henry wrote:

German Services wrote:

The only problem I see with this is that potential clients (who might find my profile through search engines or others) might think I don't want feedback displayed because I suck as a translator. Any way to add a line where the feedback would be, explaining that I opted not to use this feature to protect my clients or something like that?

Again, sorry if this has been asked before

It did come up as a question along the lines of "Would it be ok to write that in my profile?"

Of course, you are welcome to add that sort of a comment. The consensus opinion of what to show in the absence of WWA entries seemed to be nothing at all, though, ie. no trace whatsoever.



Or, in German Services' elegant turn of phrase, they might think "I suck as a translator."



Yours,
HH

[Edited at 2006-07-11 07:14]



To Harry: What do you expect from a guy who translates MTV shows and stuff for a living

To Henry: I'd rather have a neutral statement from the Proz.com in my profile, that would be rad/gnarly. But I don't care too much, so if the others think "nothing at all" is best, sure.


 
justin C
justin C
United States
Local time: 05:20
English
Some changes to the WWA pop-up box Jul 11, 2006

Just hope he s still in Buenos Aires!!

I'm still here, Alicia

Hi Charlie,
a) it's not possible to resize the window that shows the "WWA list" for an individual (i.e. the list of people who hae given a WWA for that individual). I clicked on Konstantin, who has 8 entries, and you can't see them all at once, you have to scroll.

Thanks for pointing this out, I have made the window resizable, and longer by default.
b) if you click on one of those individuals to display their profile, the only way to get back to the list is to right-click somewhere on the page and select "Back".

I have made it so that when you click on a user link or Blue Board link in the pop-up window, a new window opens up with the URL.

Thanks for the help

Best regards,
Justin


 
Walter Landesman
Walter Landesman  Identity Verified
Uruguay
Local time: 06:20
English to Spanish
+ ...
Justin Jul 11, 2006

Henry wrote:


The WWA trial as it now stands has been influenced by feedback received from a large number of members in the public discussion. Specifically, we would like to express appreciation for certain suggestions and/or requests, which either we have implemented / plan to implement or which have inspired other ideas. Among them are:

Walter Landesman (interconnection with PH, additional profile tab(s)), Kirill Semenov (batch invitation to PH and BB clients), ...




I understand your point, Henry.
But I still think PH and WWA are very connected or related. For example, an outsourcer says on a project: "Wonderful service, AS USUAL" or "I am looking forward to working with XX again". That may count as WWA as well, doesn`t it? I don´t want to bother my clients again.

Anyhow, I know Justin is working on it (hope gettting news soon)....

Hi Justin,

I know you are working on that. Any idea how long is it going to take before it can be applied?

Saludos


 
Teresita Garcia Ruy Sanchez
Teresita Garcia Ruy Sanchez  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 02:20
English to Spanish
+ ...
Error message Oct 15, 2006

I sent an invitation to one of the outsources and she gets only this message
Error.
Error: No entry maker ID was specified
What can be done to correct this?


 
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Announcement - part 2 - option to show client "willing to work again" entries in your profile (beta)






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